What is it that reincarnates?

Hi all,

Recently there was a seminar at the International Theosophical Centre in Naarden on reincarnation, led by John Algeo. The main question was: is there reincarnation and if so: what is it that reincarnates. John went into evidence for reincarnation (near death experience and kids that remember past lives) as well as the Buddhist theories on the subject and what Krishnamurti had to say.

The main conclusion seemed to be: karma (the skandhas) reincarnates, but whether a sort of personal higher Self-like something reincarnates: we don't know.
John's conclusion was as I understood it: the Higher Self is so impersonal that in each incarnation a new ray of the eternal shines into the new vehicle (including the skandhas) and makes use of that set of circumstances to learn and work (and create new skandhas).

Personally I feel that there is evidence that learning happens between lives and I don't feel that the skandhas are appropriate vehicles for that learning - this leads to the conclusion that theosphists have often come to: there is a Higher Self that (though impersonal) is personal enough to reincarnate.

The text from Krishnamurti that John based his talks on to a large extent and that provided the theme for the week is online at: Krishnamurti on death and reincarnation [a conversation following the death of John Fields]

I do hope this wasn't too much, too deep for a first post in a new forum...
Katinka

kh7,

You asked,

"The main question was: is there reincarnation and if so: what is it that reincarnates...."

--> HPB, in her book, The Key to Theosophy, uses the phrase "reincarnating Ego" on pages 28, 68, 103, 115, 135, 163.

http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm

My understanding of the reincarnating Ego is that it is our Atma-Buddha-manas. Take a look at C. Jinarajadasa's The First Principles of Theosophy, page 166

http://www3.igalaxy.net/~nick/theosophy/fp-148.htm#166

Look for the phrase "The Reincarnating Ego" just to the right of the center of the diagram on page 166. (The diagram shows the reincarnating Ego as being the threse aspects, Atma-Buddhi-Manas.)

Annine Besant seems to say it is the Causal Body that reincarnates.

"... Karana Sharira, or causal body. It is the “body of Manas” that lasts through the whole life of the reincarnating soul. It lasts from life to life, carrying on the result of each to the next. Therefore is it called the causal body, because in this body there are the causes which unfold themselves into effects on the lower planes of earthly life."

Annie Besant, The Path of Discipleship, paragraph 89
http://www.anandgholap.net/Path_Of_Discipleship-AB.htm

However, it seems (to me) that the Causal Body is only a manifestation of the reincarnating Ego, as mentioned in the HPB quotes above.

You said,

"The main conclusion seemed to be: karma (the skandhas) reincarnates...."

--> My reaction would be that karma controls reincarnation, not that it is the object that reincarnates:


"ENQUIRER. And what is it that regulates the duration, or special qualities of these incarnations?

THEOSOPHIST. Karma, the universal law of retributive justice."

The Key to Theosophy
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm
page 198

However, I admit I need to have a better understanding of the word "skandas". (That is my homework for the next few days....)

You said,

"Personally I feel that there is evidence that learning happens between lives and I don't feel that the skandhas are appropriate vehicles for that learning...."

--> I have heard that the final pieces of karma can be burned off in an after-death state, which allows Nirvana to sometime be achieved after death has occured. (I had always assumed that Enlightment could only be achieved while alive, but I am not so sure any more.) I will look for that quote and see if I can find it.

Thanks for the Krishnamurti link. I will take a look at it.

You said,

"I do hope this wasn't too much, too deep for a first post in a new forum..."

--> No. Excellent stuff. Keep up the good work!

Hi,

I think the question is - what does HBP mean when she talks about a reincarnating 'ego'. Atma is hardly a personal 'principle' for example: it is that aspect of ourselves which is linked to the Universe as a whole, the Divine unknowable something that in Hinduism is called by various names amongst which Brahman. It is the divine in us - hardly something personal.

John Algeo's point was, I think, that Buddhi is also impersonal: it is a reflection of the universal Mahat - as stated in The Theosophical Glossary that was published by G.R.S. Mead in Blavatsky's name (it is unclear to what extent Blavatsky had anything to do with it). Or perhaps it is identical with the universal Mind (Mahat)?

Looking at the sanskrit Buddhi comes from the root bodh which means 'to know' - so Buddhi is that aspect of us which sees directly into things to the heart of them - to the truth in them. Is that a personal something? I don't know. Looked at that way - I would agree with John and say that it is more a matter of attuning yourself to that truth which is implicit in life itself. But that option of attuning yourself is (obviously) karmic and also related to the condition of the next of the triple 'ego': manas. Our minds - the main focus of theosophical practice and that which 'slays the real' if we let it. Thought can hinder insight in so many ways it's scary to me sometimes.
Anyhow - all of the traditions that believe in some sort of reincarnation agree that thought / mind reincarnates. Our thoughts are also habits and are part of our skandhas.

If Buddhi is something personal after all - as in a sense it is at least in this life when it is subject to the personality - then it could also 'carry' the things we learn... I'm pretty sure something carries that stuf over - or is it just karma?

Related links:
Buddhism & Skandhas
Theosophy & skandhas
Karma in Buddhism [my site]

Katinka,

You are bringing up an interesting point. I will get out my books and do a little research. Let's see what I can find....

HPB seems to say that the Ego is the "thing" that reincarnates:

“…the principle which does not reincarnate -- save the exceptions pointed out -- is the false personality, the illusive human Entity defined and individualized during this short life of ours, under some specific form and name; but that which does and has to reincarnate nolens volens under the unflinching, stern rule of Karmic law -- is the real EGO.”
Isis Unveiled, Vol. 2, Page 37
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/isis/iu2-01.htm

“…the "Soul" (the Ego or Self) of the defunct is said to be living in Eternity: it is immortal, "co-eval with, and disappearing with the Solar boat," i.e., for the cycle of necessity. This "Soul" emerges from the Tiaou (the realm of the cause of life) and joins the living on Earth by day, to return to Tiaou every night. This expresses the periodical existences of the Ego.”
Secret Doctrine, Vol. 1, Page 227
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-11.htm

“…the higher Self, the Spiritual Ego, [is] that which is eternally reincarnating under the influence of its lower personal Selves, changing with every re-birth…”
Secret Doctrine, Vol. 2, Page 109
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-1-06.htm

“…a conscious surviving Ego-soul [is] that principle which survives after a man, and reincarnates in a like man.”Secret Doctrine, Vol. 2, Page 196 Footnote
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-1-10.htm

~~~

These seem to indicate that it is the Ego which reincarnates. Now, for the definition of the Ego. Let me do some more research.

I am presently reading the book, Secret Doctrine: Questions and Answers, by Geoffrey Barborka.

http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200309/tt00228.html

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/091351077...glance&n=283155

In the book, Mr. Barborka answers the question, "What reincarnates?"

And I quote:

~~~

Question. What reincarnates?

Answer. Although the answer to this question may be given in as brief a manner as the query -- in two words -- the ignificance of the response is gained when he reason for it is supplied, namely, the reason for The Secret Doctrine's response, as well as the need for understanding the constitution of man -- usually referred to as the seven principles of man. For this study has greater meaning than is usually suspected. Here is H.P .B.'s recommendation:

". . . study well the Principles of both the Kosmos and ourselves, dividing the group into the permanent and the impermanent, the higher and immortal and the
lower and mortal, for thus only can we master and guide, first the lower cosmic and personal, then the higher cosmic and impersonal. Once we can do that we have secured our immortality." (S.D. III, 514 3rd ed.; V, 489, 6 vol. ed.)

Following the advice, the permanent -- consisting of the higher and immortal constituents, usually referred to as the higher triad -- is first listed:

Atman -- The Divine Spark (The Monadic Essence)
Buddhi -- The Discriminating Principle
Manas -- The Mind Principle

The impermanent -- consisting of the lower and mortal constituents -- the lower quaternary:

Kama -- The Desire Principle
Prana -- The Life-Principle
Linga-sarira -- The Model Body
Sthula-sarira -- The Physical Body

There is no need to consider the mortal components here: these do not reincarnate.

Atman is defined as that which:

". . . neither progresses, forgets, nor remembers. It does not belong to this plane: it is but the ray of light eternal which shines upon and through the darkness of matter. . ." (S.D. I, 244 or. ed.; I, 264 3rd ed.; I, 289 6 vol. ed.)

It does so by means of Buddhi, its upadhi (a term which may be rendered "a veil of spirit.") These two principles, Atma-Buduhi, are termed the Monad, which in its turn requires an upadhi.

"In other words, the two higher principles can have no individuality on Earth, cannot be man, unless there is a. the Mind, the Manas-Ego, to cognize itself, and b. the terrestrial false personality, or the body of egotistical desires and personal Will, to cement the whole, as if round a pivot (which it is, truly), to the physical form of man." (S.D. II, 241; II, 252, 3rd ed.; III, 244 6 vol. ed.)

Thus it is Higher Manas -- Manas Ego -- which reincarnates, termed the Reincarnating Ego.

In The Key to Theosophy H.P .B. poses the question: "What is it that reincarnates?" and answers it:

"The Spiritual thinking Ego, the permanent principle in man, or that which is the seat of Manas." (p. 121 or. ed.)


(Secret Doctrine: Questions and Answers, by Geoffrey Barborka, pp. 42-43)

~~~

That which reincarnates, described technically, is the upadhi of the monad, namely "Higher Manas," usually referred to as the Reincarnating Ego. While upadhi is usually rendered "a vehicle," its literal meaning allows this rendering: "veil of spirit." The radiance of Atman thus illumines or shines through the upadhi.

At this point it would be well to refer to the Mahatma's answer to a question placed by Mr. Sinnett:

"The spiritual Ego. . . is continually evolving personalities?

"The Spiritual Ego goes on evolving personalities, in which 'the sense of identity' is very complete while living. After their separation from the physical Ego, that sense returns very dim, and belongs wholly to the recollections of the physical man." (The Mahatma Letters, p.174).

"Now these personalities I understand to be absolutely new evolutions in each case. A. P. Sinnett is, for what it is worth -- absolutely a new invention?" (ibid 147)

"An error. A. P. Sinnett is not 'an absolutely new invention.' He is the child and creation of his antecedent personal self; the Kannic progeny. . ." (ibid p. 175)

(Secret Doctrine: Questions and Answers, by Geoffrey Barborka, p. 50)

I guess John Algeo knew what he was talking about - this proves his point, just about. I guess it would have to be the higher manas then that learns spiritual truths and keeps a knowledge of right choices made.

I do have a problem with Barborka though: the SD quote mentions two things: higher manas and terrestial egoistical personality. How do bad habits fit in? Aren't they too 'reincarnating' material as it were? They are karmic - and from a Buddhist standpoint certainly reincarnate. Still they can't be said to be part of the higher manas, I don't think. Barborka would probably solve it by saying that we all send out elementals (life-atoms in his words) during life and especially when our 'system' (my word) dissolves after death. Then, when the reincarnating ego (higher manas + divine ray: buddhi-manas) comes down again for a new incarnation it attracts back to itself those life-atoms or elementals that it shed at the end of his/her last life. Would be nice if you could look that up in that excellent question&answer book by Barborka... (has an excellent reputation already, though I haven't read it myself).

Katinka,

Your question (when we bring bad habits over from a previous incarnation, where are they stored in the interim?) is a great question. I will continue to read Barborka's book, and, if I find his take on the matter, I will let you now.

I just wanted to bump this thread up to the top.

Re: Katinka's query about the "bad habits".

All our lower energies are naturally attracted to and remain with whatever creature or energy pool they are in sympathetic vibration with, (fleshy or not,) between our lifetimes. When rebirth occurs these lower life atoms then leave their way-station to rejoin their Master who is returning to a flesh body.

What kind of characteristics, attributes has a part that reincarnates- is this "part" made from atoms (is it of physical, material nature) with it's mass, dimensions, .. ?

Mar,

Take a look at this chart.



Our universe is said to be composed of seven Planes of Existence, which are labeled down the left side of the graph. (Hey Nicholas, do Judge's followers accept these seven names?)

It is the three "objects" called the Atma, the Buddhi, and the Manas which unite into what is called the Reincarnating Ego. This is the "object" which reincarnates.

You asked,

"What kind of characteristics, attributes has a part that reincarnates- is this "part" made from atoms (is it of physical, material nature) with it's mass, dimensions, .. ?"

--> Each level of the formed Planes of Existence are made up atoms. According to Leadbeater, each single atom is actually made up of a group of hundreds of atoms of the Plane above it. (I am not sure how Judge's followers see this — perhaps Nicholas can help us on this one.) For example, an atom on the Manas level is actually hundreds of atoms on the Buddhic level grouped together in one group.

Is this, who we really are?
If so, where is this "Reincarnating Ego" positioned, (placed,centered,situated..)?

Is this "Reincarnating Ego" eternal?

Article about this topic http://www.asitis.com/2/17.html

Any similarities with Theosophy?

Mar,

You asked,

"Is this, who we really are?"

--> Yes and no. Take a look at this graphic.



There is only one reality, and that reality is the Absolute (the first object in the graphic above). We (and everything else) are all part of the Absolute. The true nature of the Absolute is unkown to us. All we know is, spirit and matter came from the Absolute. Spirit and matter is where the story of "what we are" begins.

You probably have read Genesis 1:1 in the Bible, where it says Spirit moved over the Waters. (The Waters is matter.) In Theosophical symbolism, Spirit shined on the Waters, and billions of points of Light reflected off the Waters. We are those billions of sparks of Light. But at that point, we had a long way to go before we would become individualized human beings. We were merely sparks of energy with no form, no point of reference. What was needed was experiences in a material world.

Each spark wrapped itself in layers of materiality in order to gain concrete experience. Each spark wrapped itself in one layer, then another. Eventually, each spark descended down to a level called the Atman Level, or the Atman Plane of Existence. This was the first level that anything like individuality was accomplished. (At levels above the Atman Level, we were still too close to the Absolute to really have any individuality.)

We needed to wrap ourselves in even more layers of the material world. The Atman wrapped itself in matter from the Buddhi Level, and created a shell for itself called Buddhic Body or Buddhi. The Atman and Buddhi together make up what is called the Monad, which is the second object in the graphic above.

Still more veiling into matter was needed. The Buddhi wrapped itself in matter from the Manas or Mental Level, and created a shell for itself called the Higher Mental Body. Thus, three objects now existed, called the Atma-Buddhi-Manas. This Atma-Buddhi-Manas is called the Reincarnating Ego (or just "Ego"), which is the third object in the graphic above. The Reincarnating Ego is directly involved with what happens from incarnation to incarnation. (Please note the Theosophical idea of Ego is very different from the Modern Psychology idea of Ego.)

From the Ego we get the Lower Mental Body and the Astral Body. These two objects compromise the Personality, which is the fourth and last object in the graphic above.

To answer you question, we are the interaction of the fourth "objects" in the graphic above, plus a physical body.

"...where is this "Reincarnating Ego" positioned, (placed,centered,situated..)?"

--> Think of the different bodies as co-located spheres, one inside the other. Therefore, we are actually several different spheres of energy, all centered on the middle-point of our physical body.

"Is this 'Reincarnating Ego' eternal?"

--> No. Each part of the Reincarnating Ego will last only as long as it is needed. Once a part of it is no longer needed, that part will be discarded. Let me review how the "bodies" or spheres interact.

Atman cannot manifest on the next lower level, the Buddhi Plane, so it creates a "body" or veil for itself on the Buddhi Plane, so that "body" can have experiences. One effect of all this is that a place for a center of consciousness is created. We humans are presently conscious on the Lower Mental Plane. The day will come when we raise our consciousnes to the Buddhi Plane. At that point, all "bodies" below the Buddhi Plane will become unnecessary, and they will be discarded. Likewise, when we finally become fully conscious on the Atman Plane, we will discard the Buddhi "body" forever.

"The soul is atomic in size...."

--> I do not think the size of the Reincarnating Ego has ever been determined. My understanding is the Mental Body is larger than the Astral Body, the Buddhic Body is larger than the Mental Body, etc., although I am not sure about that.

"This atomic soul is floating in the five kinds of air...."

--> In Theosophy, our "soul" is said to have seven principles, which is what I think they are referring to. It may also be referring to what are called the Four Elements.

"...is situated within the heart...."

--> Rather than this being a center-point of the Ego, I think it is the location of one of the Chakras called the Heart Chakra.

"...and spreads its influence all over the body of the embodied living entities."

--> That agrees with Theosophy.

"When the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual influence is exhibited."

--> This is basically correct, althought I would say that, once we raise ourselves to a point where we no longer need a physical, astral, and mental body, etc., a great deal of purification will have occured (which seems to be the same thing your quote is saying). Let's relate this idea to your quote: Once we have been liberated from our astral, mental, etc., bodies, we will have much more spiritual influence on events around us.