Hi everybody!

I came across this discussion on rebirth/reincarnation on the Hsi Lai Temple webpage.

http://www.hsilai.org/english/e_hsilai/dha...alk_rebirth.htm

It brings up several issues on the topic of rebirth/reincarnation. One of those is the belief that people can be reborn as animals. (Theosophy does not teach that people can be reborn as animals. According to Theosophy, if a person were reborn as an animal, it would be an unnatural step back in evolution.)

By they way, the Hsi Lai Temple (in the Los Angeles are) is the largest Buddhist temple building on American soil, and is quite impressive. If anyone is ever in the Los Angeles area, I hope they have a chance to visit the temple.

I am pondering a few questions. It has to do with Buddhism. Previous to my complete dislodging in christianity, I wondered, looking at the different paths. Some where trying to complement the east and the west. Some where from the eastern schools them self. First there is zen, which I appreciate, as it fits into the beat poets that I enjoy. An example is Cold Mountain. Also looked at Shambhala.
It is not until recently, that I have taken dharma seriously. I have perused a number of books (and am recently reading Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche's 'Joy of Living'). I am beginning to understand the different schools of Tibetan Buddhism.
One thing that strikes me is the ritualism. I see this in the Gelug, though the Lam Rim. I am not one for ritual, which in ways seems exoteric; and have seen enough of that within RCatholicsim. It may be that the human condition seems attracted to ritual, and there may be great benefits. At times I feel like radical comet.
Of course, HPB writes, We say it again: archaic Occultism would remain incomprehensible to all, if it were rendered otherwise than through the more familiar channels of Buddhism and Hinduism. For the former is the emanation of the later; and both are children of one mother - ancient Lemuro-Atlantean Wisdom.

Jim B.

I do not mean to offend any buddhists in what I wrote. What I wish to understand are the recommendations in "Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand'. That is, it seems so complicated to do all the prostatations, et.al. Any help would be sincerely appreciated.
Jim B.

Jim,

I was a Buddhist for many years, although I do not call myself a Buddhist anymore. One of our other members, Nicholas, is a practicing Buddhist. We would be more than happy to answer your questions about Buddhism. Do not worry, I do not think we will be offended by your questions. If anything, we would love to clear up any misconceptions you have.

You said,

"One thing that strikes me is the ritualism."

"...it seems so complicated to do all the prostatations, et.al."

--> It sounds like to are having trouble getting used to doing prostrations, etc., that are used in a particular tradition within Buddhism. Am I right?

There are different traditions within Buddhism. Some of the traditions consider ritual and prostrations to be important, while other traditions do not.

I feel there is also a cultural aspect to all of this. Many Buddhist traditions come from the Orient, where doing things like prostrations are a normal part of life. A problem sometimes arises when a westerner joins such a sangha. Many westerners are just not used to doing things like prostrations. In my opinion, it is a cultural thing. (I used to live in Asia, and there were many Asian customs that I had a hard time getting used to.)

Are you trying to deal with the physical difficulty of doing prostrations? Do you feel prostrations are unnecessary? Do you think it is a conflict with your culture and their culture?

Nick, that is the reason I am writing. I do have misconceptions, and I am sure that the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood recommends clearing them.

Rituals have value in most cases, it seems, however I seem to be a bit of an iconoclast. There is a history of ritual in the west, i.e. the Catholic Church, which was one of the reasons for my exploration there. However, they saw so much error in ritual outside the church's canons. An example would be the slam the present pope made on meditation when he was their watchdog.

As I said, right now I am new to the Tibetan school of Buddhism. I have looked into Insight Meditation and Zen. I was able to practice these in a western way, although after my dislodging, I am serious about tyring practices in their own, not completing them.

I am attracted to Mahayana for their metaphysics. To gather these metaphysics, it is necessary to practice, as I see the necessity of retraining my mind. This I try to practice by forms of meditation which I find time to do. As I am 61, but labor in the dirt, I am OK in this vehicle. However, I cannot bend to much, as my back is old. This may be an excuse, but it seems that a lot of these rituals would take time from the practice of sitting. I am also afraid that I would get caught up in external aspects of development, however these rituals do develop spiritual benefits to myself and all beings.

One of my problems is that I may be a bit compulsive. This may cause me problems in practice.

Jim B.

Jim,

One idea immediately pops into my mind: Take your time!

Let me share a story. I moved to Japan many years ago. One of the most important Japanese customs is bowing. Well, I am an American, and I felt real uncomfortable about all the bowing that was going on. I just had a mindest that, doggone it, I am an American, and American don't bow!

It took me a full six months to attempt my first bow. As the years went by, I got used to it. Now, I love to bow. I cannot imagine not bowing to a Japanese person. It has truly become a part of me.

Take your time. Go sit in the back of the room and watch prostrations. When you are ready, you will be ready. If it takes ten years, who cares?

Jim,

I am old, fat, way out of shape, with bad knees, so full prostrations are almost impossible. The purpose of them is to show reverence & respect for the Buddhas & bodhisattvas and express our humility. Of course, if you feel little or no reverence for them, then never mind. If you do - then just do sitting, from the waist forward bows, with palms together at the heart. At the same time visualize countless sages in front of you, to which you bow down.

It is the virtuous motive with which you act that makes an action powerful for good.

Doing only mental or visualized prostrations is for those whose devotion, wisdom & great compassion are solid. The rest of us will use mental prostrations as the lazy way out.

Je Tsongkhapa, who the Masters said was as advanced as one could be, made millions of prostrations during his life. During one several year retreat he made 3.5 million.

Nick and Nicholas,

Thank you for your advice. I was thinking of acts of devotion at home, not public.
Yes, I do get ahead of myself. I was reading 'Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand'(pg.172), which has a lot of advice on practice. One of them is prostrations. Pabongka Rinpoche goes into a good amount of detail. I see that Tsong-kha-pa (Lam Rim Chen Mo), even though he is the source, speaks more clearly to me, now.

As Nick said, Take your time. Yes, after all it is a path. In fact, when I first began to look at Theosophy, I throw the I Ching (which I rarely do). I received The Caldron. The more I journey, the more I see this Ting at work.
When we take a trip to Vancouver in March, I am going to look for a statue of Buddha. Even though my hips are shot (no more lifting of bales of hay), I am able to do a half lotus, and will follow the advice on bowing to all.

BTW, I would be interested in what the Master's said on Tsong-kha-pa.

Jim B.

From Mahatma Letter #9 (18 chronologically):

Jim,

Whenever I am in the Los Angeles area, I try to attend the Hsi Lai sunday morning services. In the back of the temple, there is a row of benches. People who are elderly or have physical limitations sit on the benches and do not do prostrations. When everyone else is doing prostrations, some of the people in the back stand up and bow ever so slightly. Here is the idea is, these people would like to do prostrations, but are unable. The bowing allows them to participate in a small way. It is obvious these people would do prostrations if they were physically able.

Give yourself the freedom to be imperfect. If you have physical limitations, everyone recommends that you only bow, or do nothing at all.

One more thing. I see prostrations as a ceremony. Some people say that no ceremony here on Earth is required for us to achieve Enlightenment. (I agree.) In my humble opinion, people who think prostrations give them a special edge in achieving Enlightenment may be crossing over into the area of superstition. One of the greatest books on Theosophy told me that the first thing we must do is get rid of all superstition. I would recommend that anyone who wants to do prostrations should first confirm to themselves that they are not doing it for superstitious reasons. (Nor should they do them because they are forced to.)

I believe that prostrations can accelerate a person's progress towards Enlightenment (when done for the right reasons). I believe that, whenever we think a pious and devout thought, it accelerates our progress towards Enlightenment. (Prostrations provide us with such an opportunity.) Part of achieving Enlightenment (in my opinion) is having a certain frame of mind, and prostrations can put us into such a frame of mind. Finally, I would add that I do not think prostrations are guaranteed to accelerate a person's progress towards Enlightenment, and there are other activities that may provide just as efficient an acceleration, or perhaps a faster acceleration.

In Buddhism, there is also the issue of building merit. Some people do prostrations specifically to build merit. I would never do prostrations in order to build merit, but I can understand that there are those people who would, and I respect that.

Finally, Theosophy teaches us that there are different types of people. One type is the devotional type. For the devotional type, prostrations may be the perfect kind of religious activity. Theosophy also teaches us that there are people who are not the devotional type. For these people, there may be other religious activities that are better suited. Many religions make the mistake of believing that one religion fits all, and that one religious activity (e.g., prostrations) suits everyone. Fortunately, Theosophy gives us a different and fresh way of looking at it, and tells us that different people need to find what works for them, and not follow every other person in one particular group. (This is another reason why we should avoid doing religious activities during Theosophical meetings.)

Jim,

I googled Tsong-kha-pa, and there is a lot of information on him on the Internet.

Here is an interesting article on a book of his that you may want to read.

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/asia/as-aed2.htm

Great Nick,
I appreciated the article on The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment. Let me quote from it, "'Mind Stream' Each of us is a mind stream, and a current of the One mind stream" "Human beings unconsciously practice mantras, rituals and visualizations all the time through their speech, routines and entertainments."
One thing that Theosophy has given me is a more complete realization of Buddhism. That is, it is more that nirvana and also more that a single buddha.
Also don't tease this old man :D , whats the book.

Jim B.

Jim,

You have reminded me of a discussion I just had regarding the Buddhist rejection of the belief of a human soul or Atman. I remarked that the Buddhist concept called "mind-stream" is the same thing as a soul or Atman, merely called by another name.

Jiddu Krishnamurti's book, At the Feet of the Master, is one of the best-selling Theosophical books of all time. In this book, a young acolyte repeats for us the instructions he received every night (while asleep) from his guru, while the student was traveling in his astral body to his guru for instruction.

Krishnamurti (Alcyone), Jiddu, At the Feet of the Master (Online)
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/other/alcyone.htm

Krishnamurti (Alcyone), Jiddu, At the Feet of the Master (Hardcopy)
http://www.questbooks.net/title.cfm?bookid=5

Nicholas told me that there is some controversy concerning this book. Nicholas said the story was actually of earlier Hindu origin, and was merely repeated by Krishnamurti. (Whether this is true I do not know.) Is it possible the Mahatmas were merely reissuing a teaching that needed to be reissued?

You said,

"One thing that Theosophy has given me is a more complete realization of Buddhism."

--> Theosophy takes the loose ends of Buddhism, and ties them together nicely. This is why I like Theosophy: It tells the entire story of the past evolution of pure spirit into human form, and the future evolution of human spirit into unimaginable greatness. It does this in a way that no other religion or philosophy can even begin to touch. Christianity argues that Heaven and Nirvana cannot be reconciled. Buddhism argues that a human is extinguished at the end of earthly existence. Theosophy has none of these problems.

It seems that one of the loose ends that Theosophy ties is, what Nicholas reminded me earlier, an esoteric outlook.

Back to reincarnation; I would like to quote from a book mentioned, 'Liberation In the Palm of Your Hand', by Pabongka Rinpoche.
" Today's mind is a continuation of yesterdays mind, and this in turn is a continuation of that of the day before. This much is understandable. The mind just before is the continuation of the mind that lay within the mother's womb. The mind immediately after it has entered the womb is a continuation of the mind immediately before entering the womb. The samsara goes back listlessly in time, you cannot find anything that is "The starting point for the mind." This proves that your rebirths must also go back listlessly in time." (pg 522)

Also interesting is his comment around this statement, that, "You must have had countless mothers, and so it is impossible that all sentient beings have not been your mother". This is because, "You must understand that all sentient beings were once the ultimate form of a friend or relative --your mother."
This reminds me of a Theosophical statement that when we incarnate, we are incarnated amongst those we were close to ( in a good way or not so good).

The Secret Doctrine says, in a section I read which I read a few days ago, " What is that "Spark" which "hangs from the flame?" It is Jiva, the MONAD in conjunction with MANAS. or rather its aroma - that which remains from each personality, when worthy, and hangs from Atma-Buddhi, the Flame, by the tread of life. In whatever way interpreted, and into whatever number of principles the human is divided, it may easily be shown that this doctrine is supposed by all ancient religions..." (pg. 238)

Jim B.

Jim,

"...you cannot find anything that is 'The starting point for the mind.' "

--> This is the kind of statement that Theosophy takes issue with. Buddhism discourages anyone from looking for such a starting point, while Theosophy encourages us to do just that.

"What is that 'Spark' which 'hangs from the flame?' It is Jiva, the MONAD in conjunction with MANAS. or rather its aroma - that which remains from each personality, when worthy, and hangs from Atma-Buddhi, the Flame, by the tread of life."

--> Here is a chart I put together some time ago. It may help you understand the "Thread which Hangs from the Flame" a little better.



SD refers to The Secret Doctrine.
**DP refers to The Divine Plan by Geoffrey Barborka.
i-7-5 refers to The Stanzas of Dzyan, SD Book 1, Stanza 7, Shloka 5.
*HPB was inconsistent in her use of the word Jiva. Barborka points out she may have sometimes written Jiva but meant Jivatman.

Nick, thanks again for clearing obscurations and misconceptions.

Jim B.