In past translations of the bible there have been conflicts in the 6th commandment; "thou shall not kill" and "thou shall not murder". Christianity isn't the only religion who's rules have conflicting views on killing, especially depending on the author of the dogma.

Does karma see the differences among killing in war, murder, self defense killing, or killings by a religious organization who's members doing the killing feel they are completely righteous.

Does karma see a difference between killing, and murder?

Valknut,

I think a lot of it has to do with motivation. I think killing in self-defense is okay IF it is in self-defense. If a crazy man was coming after my family with a gun, and the only way I had to stop him was to shoot him first, yes I would shoot first.

It has been said that karma is more about intent than effect. That sounds about right to me.

The one rule I use to see if something is okay is to look at the same thing happening years later with the tables turned. Let's say the scenario above happened. Let's say that years later I tried to shoot someone else for a bad reason, and one of their family members shot me first in self-defense (in a karma-arranged situation that none of us had any control over). Would I be okay with that? Yes, I would.

Think of karma as the golden rule. Do unto others, because it's eventually going to come right back at us -- good or bad, it doesn't matter.

I see karma much the same way. My problems start with people who are forced to kill in wars or other situations that are not self defense.

And how does karma treat people with mental problems, people that may think their killing is sanctioned by god.

Would the intent of helping your people or ending conflict be enough to redeem the act of taking a life, or not?

And, martial artists occasionally die in the ring. How would karma see that kind of killing?

Valknut,

Let’s step back a moment, and take a look at the definition of good and evil from a theosophical viewpoint. Our task in life is to make progress towards enlightenment. If something helps us accelerate progress along the path, it is ‘good.’ If something causes us to slow down progress, or even go backwards along the path, it is ‘bad.’ Therefore, good and bad karma are defined as these two types of things.

You asked,

“…how does karma treat people [who] may think their killing is sanctioned by god..”

--> It goes back to making or losing progress on the path. If the intent is to negatively force ideas on another person that prevents that person from making progress along the path, that is bad. If it helps the other person make progress along the path (by showing them how their aggression is causing them to suffer), then it is a good thing. Remember that when we die and are ‘judged,’ we are shown the cause and effect of every action we did in life. At that time, we will be able to clearly ‘see’ everyone’s thoughts and feelings they had as they acted out each act in life. From this, it is easy to see why things are done, and if they are done to help or hinder other people from making progress along the path.

“Would the intent of helping your people or ending conflict be enough to redeem the act of taking a life, or not?”

--> I think it would be a big part of it. I understand it is easy to see such subtle differences in people’s motivations in their astral bodies. The judging at the end of each incarnation clearly shows such subtle differences.

“And, martial artists occasionally die in the ring. How would karma see that kind of killing?”

--> If it is an accident, it can be clearly shown in the ‘killer’s’ astral aura.

Thanks for that! I'm a martial artist myself, and I know some people in the military. We get to talking about karma occasionally, this will certainly add to the conversation.

Valknut, let us know what they say.

I want to add one thing, which is partly theosophical but is partly my own thinking. The way I see it, when we die, we review our just-finished life, and watch all of those events as they happened. Not only that, for every event, we can feel everyone's emotions and read everyone's thoughs for each event, so there is no way way we can misunderstand everyone's motivations for what they did. (I think it will be a fascinating process to go through.)

It would seem to me the current ego-based mentality of man's consciouseness makes a particulary focused matter of "Good" and "Bad," even as applied to Karma. To my limited apprehension, [Life] is itself progress. Life is born into the Divine Wisdom, regardless of form or state, whether human or a rock. This inherent knowing of what contributes to a progression of life, or a retardation of it in reference to that inherent, innate, Divine Wisdom apparant at all levels of exitence determines how and whether we progress or retard ... and our affect on [all] is considered, or factored into this process. So, from a [prospective] of the current level of human consciousness we will portray actions and results as "Good" or "Bad", when there is no actual [judgement] at play, simply an adherence or violation of some intrinsic law of existence.

I cannot say this is a theosphical concept, per se, it is my philosophical observation and rationalization ... however, I don't see it as counter to Theosophy.

I would consider the fact that their action is based on "thinking" would in itself limit its spiritual quality to the level of ego-driven "the Thinker" based man in his current state. And, therefore, it will be an inherently flawed "thought" given the grander latent spiritual states ahead of us. The inherent Divine Wisdom embued in the [all], however, is unerring, and complete. We would likely (in effect) be judged (but not in actuality) in accordence to this Law, regardless of our state of consciousness, or level of attainment. Based on the Highest criteria, it fits the Divine Plan, or is detrimental ... and to degrees, and its affect on the "all" is again a consideration. So, karma IS a response, inherent in the process of our evolutionary state that it is, and the Wisdom that it is based on will make the necessary correction.

WE may currently think in terms of negativity, but that is essentially our level of reasoning. Such may be true, or not. That level, however, varies from the spiritual philosophical and Theosophical point of view, from the Religious. As, does the perception and [extent] of what God would be considered to be. Religions DO make allowances in the interest of furthering themselves. Philsophies might at first consider that devicive, and secondly, question whether there is an actual God who would sanction. The philosophical, Theosophical approach provides a greater experience and example of reasoning and therefore has a good argument for that which is actually "Good." Good and God might have a relation. Good, also, might be evaluated BEYOND an current state of Man's existence. In other words, is any one action Ultimately good, or good at all stages, and for all time.

At that Higher level, it could and is easily argued "we" have NO right or authority to take any life, of any kind whatsoever, OR ever. We might and will, however, find ourselves compelled to do so as long as we are in a state where we distinguish ourselves, and human consciousness as distinct, different, and by extension "better" that all else. That differentiation, distinction, specialness, and personal value will make us preservationists, and protective. THAT might be the greater lesson in it all, when all is said and done. In my opinion, of course. I consider and encourage Theosophy, but may not follow its traditional expression in the same means and terms of its founders, but rather, try and fit it into my thinking and from there draw these reasoned conclusions.

I can't see how there could be ANY redemption. However, there is understanding of our actions given our current state of evolution.

Judging, in my opinion, is actually applied to ourselves, and it can be a simple matter of our resultant energies rising to its appropriate level, as when mixing oil and water. Consciousness will seek its own level. To a clairvoyant, by the way, this is visibly evident when we look at life in the Mental Plane, more particularly Devachaun ... grouping is clearly evident as is a spherical collecting of life of similar states. In lectures I often blow soap bubbles, as a child's toy would allow to "demonstrate" what Heaven looks like. Secondarily, by the way, is because of the pearlescent effect of the spheres and the particular colors, which corrolate.

Aura might be a better stand-alone term than Astral Aura, from a clairvoyant's perspective, since [that] aura holds energy/consciousness from multiple Planes. The distinction is made because the effect is NOT just evident in Astral energy alone. In addition to awareness being evident in Mental Plane energy and akasha (related), it also percists in [some] positive reference to the result of a prior life in one's Higher Self -- again, something that is visible (though few would be aware of this latter.)


All, just a slight variation on what Nick has already said from a clairvoyant medium's perspective. Might provide a broader understanding that serves the larger audience you are speaking for.

Christian,

You said,

“…from a [prospective] of the current level of human consciousness we will portray actions and results as "Good" or "Bad", when there is no actual [judgement] at play, simply an adherence or violation of some intrinsic law of existence.”

--> Perhaps it is all a matter of labels? Theosophy tell us that suicide is bad, that committing suicide will cause us to lose progress along the path. Some people may wish to hang the label ‘bad’ on suicide, others may not, but suicide still causes us to lose progress along the path. We need a way to communicate this to other people.

“I would consider the fact that their action is based on "thinking" would in itself limit its spiritual quality to the level of ego-driven "the Thinker" based man in his current state.”

--> It is true that ‘thinking’ is a flawed way of solving problems. Unfortunately, for the vast majority of us, it is the only way we have to solve problems.

“Aura might be a better stand-alone term than Astral Aura, from a clairvoyant's perspective, since [that] aura holds energy/consciousness from multiple Planes.”

--> Yes, it is fascinating to consider what the mental, buddhi, and atma bodies must look like. I have heard the mental body has a number of similarities to the astral body in the way it looks.

"Good" and "bad" are human concepts and can only be used from a human perspective. No doubt we could all produce diferent definitions, influenced by our personal prejudices. But we are humans, and that's about as much as we can hope for, for starters.

Trying to look at it more objectively (but still, I guess, in human terms) perhaps we could say that something is "good" if it represents progress towards unity, harmony or greater awareness. Something is "bad" if it results in regression towards disunity, dis-harmony, or ignorance.

Harvey,

That's a good way of putting it. Perhaps the idea of going towards/away from unity and harmony is a better way of saying progressing/regressing along the path to enlightenment.

Harvey, I agree.

Karma is the unrelenting force in the manifested universe to restore equilibrium, and will never fail. The greater the imbalance, the greater the Karmic response. Karma is never punitive, but always corrective. So it's all good!

Remember that your highest self is already perfect and unchanging (Atma is Brahma) and so it is only our experience of a world by our lower selves that could be characterized as good or bad, towards/away, progressing/regressing.

Lanoo_Jon

Ha, yes all quite interesting. The mental body, for example, does not indicate appendage below the knee. Therefore, we see [us] appearing draped, and sort of scooting and not walking. Angles of movement are irrelevant.

The Red the large group of hand-picked Cardinals wear around the Vatican are deliberately symbolic of the blood they are willing to share defending the Pope. That must provide at least some insight to the views of the Christian Church on killing. I think we see this sentiment in other countries situated in Eastern areas.