Delta Golf Sierra - November 10, 2007 04:15 AM (GMT)
Would you all welcome A-Rod to the Red Sox? Do you think it will happen?
winstonopia - November 11, 2007 04:48 AM (GMT)
No, and no. Hopefully... lol
I don't want him on the Sox, and I doubt they'll go after him. most likely the angels/yankees/dodgers. would be funny if he ended up with torre again.
do you think the yankees will end up going after him even after they said they wouldn't if he opted out? i heard they're going hard after johan santana and miguel cabrera (to fill a-rod's spot) and crede/lowell if they can't get cabrera. we'll see what happens...
Delta Golf Sierra - November 12, 2007 01:05 AM (GMT)
I predict that he will go to the Angels. There is now way the Yankees will go after him now. They have said all along they would not go after him as a free agent, and he blew them off when they tried to extend his contract. His bridges have burned.
I would like to see them get Miguel Cabrera, but it will cost them at least one of their best pitching prospects. I don't know if he is worth what they will have to give up. Same with Santana. I'd prefer that they wait a year and wait for Santana to become a free agent than to give up top prospects for him. Crede would be a waste, as he's coming off surgery and a poor season. Lowell will probably resign with Boston, and will probably be paid more than he's really worth given his age.
utract - November 12, 2007 05:20 PM (GMT)
a-rod seems a bit of a dick
deisel 10 - November 12, 2007 08:28 PM (GMT)
More than a bit...
He's an amazing player, I can't deny that, but for the money he wants it's not reasonable. I also can't get over how jerkish it was to announce he was opting out of his contract during Game 4 of the World Series. I could forgive the bush league plays, I could put his jerky comments out of my mind (I do, in fact, root for Curt Schilling, and in any other context, I wouldn't be able to stand him), but the way that announcement went down was so immature, I can't even stand it. I don't want him anywhere near the Red Sox.
Miguel Cabrera, on the other hand, is amazing. The kid is 24 years old, and has been in the top 10 of almost every offensive category in all of MLB over the past three seasons. The only prospect for the Red Sox that I would say is off-limits in a deal for Cabrera is Buccholz. Trade Ellsbury, trade Lester, it doesn't matter, Cabrera is that good. There is zero reason to believe that this kid won't have a career equivalent to that of Manny Ramirez, and all the reason in the world to believe that he will. Now, eventually there is too high a price, but a guy like Cabrera is the kind of player you just have to put it out there for. (I've been a Cabrera fangirl since 2003, can you tell?)
I will be happy if the Sox resign Lowell, however, more than three years is no good, and I doubt the Sox will do it. He is too old and looking at his career stats, this year was not the norm. Sometimes you've just got to let go...
utract - November 13, 2007 05:02 PM (GMT)
hah I managed to say something relevent in a sports thread.
winstonopia - November 13, 2007 09:19 PM (GMT)
congrats! and you're right, too. he's A-hole, not A-rod (am I a genius, or what? :P )
|Miguel Cabrera, on the other hand, is amazing. The kid is 24 years old, and has been in the top 10 of almost every offensive category in all of MLB over the past three seasons.|
He's too fat. He's a fatty. A big fatty. I'd rather have Ellsbury and the young crew we've got now.
Delta Golf Sierra - November 14, 2007 10:28 PM (GMT)
I heard today that A-Rod is now talking with the Yankees, and that they will negotiate with him as long as Scott Boras isn't involved. So much for bridges being burned. If the Yankees can sign him for under $30 mill a year, I'd be thrilled with that. I don't care how much of a jerk he is - he puts up big numbers every year, and the Yankees won't have to trade their top prospects to replace him. I hope it happens.
winstonopia - November 15, 2007 09:50 PM (GMT)
wow... i thought cashman was 1000000000000000000000000% sure he wasn't talking to a-rod once he opted out? guess not... well, you can have him back. enjoy!
deisel 10 - November 15, 2007 10:32 PM (GMT)
Win--You don't like Cabrera because he's fat?? Er, yeah, I'm pretty sure I have the better argument...
The Southern Acre - November 17, 2007 03:26 AM (GMT)
Cabrera is the guy that we should look at but I think we have to look at what we are giving up. Lester? Yes. Ellsbury and Buccholz? No chance. They are the future of the franchise. And though you may say we can give the franchise another future, if somethings not broken, why fix it? And they are definetly not broken.
deisel 10 - November 17, 2007 03:31 AM (GMT)
Ellsbury is not as good as he looked this season. yeah, the speed is great and he's a good defender, but he's got no power and doesn't take many walks. At best, he will be a Damon-like player, burnt out by the time he's 35. Cabrera could be a Manny Ramirez. Which would you rather have?
The Southern Acre - November 19, 2007 02:38 AM (GMT)
But he is an even better fielder and has a far superior throwing arm to Damon's. Besides even if he burns out at 35 thats still ten solid years of having a great defensive presence patroling the outfield. Plus, he is a true leadoff hitter which we don't have and every team wants. There are plenty of sluggers out there that we could get through free agency if we really need them. Players like Ellsbury are not so easy to come by.
deisel 10 - November 19, 2007 03:46 AM (GMT)
A player like Ellsbury is very good to have. A player like Cabrera is a once in a generation kind of guy. Cabrera will be setting records, Ellsbury will be average. He overperformed this year, and although above average, he isn't really that spectacular. Leadoff hitting is overrated, and anyway, Ellsbury isn't even that ideal leading off, Pedroia is better, because he sees more pitches and takes more walks. Ellsbury is faster, sure, but he will fail in the leadoff spot for the same reasons Coco Crisp did. He is too impatient and doesn't take enough pitches. Great bottom of the order guy, doesn't strike out a ton, we're lucky to be able tp put guys like that in the eight and nine spots. however, if you ask me who I want more, Ellsbury or cabrera, the answer is Cabrera in a second. It's not really a tough choice.
enzy - November 24, 2007 02:11 AM (GMT)
i beg to differ...ellsbury is going to be a record setting guy as well and is ideal for the lead off spot...look at what he did when he was playing regularly for manny: stats
a .353 avg and on base regularly? he will break the record for infield hits and definitely some sort of steals record be it mlb, single season, or a red sox record. i would keep ellsbury rather than bet any young gun we have (ellsbury, buchholz). i wouldnt mind the young guy included in this deal being lester tho
winstonopia - November 24, 2007 03:35 AM (GMT)
Agreed. With both of you, if that's possible. Cabrera is really a game changer. A season changer. Ellsbury is damn near untouchable, but I'd be willing to give up Lester to get him. Prospect vs. YOUNG Everyday player? I'll take the one who's proven himself every time.
deisel 10 - November 24, 2007 03:41 AM (GMT)
It's a moot point now with Lowell coming back anyway. But Ellsbury, despite being a very, very good player, is not a franchise player. He hit two home runs in the minors all year before hitting three in Boston. His BABIP was a ridiculous .380, which will go down next season, it's almost guaranteed, and his OBP was only .394 despite his .353 batting average. That means he doesn't walk a lot (He was at a 2:1 K:BB ratio while in the bigs, which is not good), which we don't want from our leadoff hitter. Ellsbury will give us a .700 OPS, great speed, and well above average defense. I'm certainly not complaining. He will not, however, be as amazing as a lot of people seem to think. Well above average, yes. Franchise player, no.
Lester is interesting, because if he can ever harness his stuff, he will be amazing. His raw stuff is as good as (if not better than) Papelbon's, but he has control problems. See Daniel Cabrera as an extreme example of what I'm talking about--a guy with amazing stuff, a killer curve, who's just never gotten it together. Lester's a lot more mature than Cabrera, however, and his issues aren't as major, he's shown progress, so I'm keeping an optimistic view of things.
Buccholz is the one prospect I would say isn't worth giving up. Giving up Buccholz for a Cabrera or a Santana is different than giving up Hanley Ramirez for Beckett was, because great young pitching is harder to come by. Although watching Ramirez play makes me sick thinking about what could have been. I'm happy to have Beckett though, couldn't you guess? :)
winstonopia - November 24, 2007 04:13 AM (GMT)
lol no doubt about it - beck has been huge.
cabrera is :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ... we laugh at him so much here...
how bout Lowell + decent prospect for Cabrera. think they'll take it? :P
deisel 10 - November 24, 2007 04:20 AM (GMT)
Yeah, Cabrera was the first example I thought of, lol, he's got major maturity issues, though...
Now we're discussing two Cabreras by last name. :lol: Did you see that Orlando Cabrera got traded to the White Sox? And that the Angels signed Torrii Hunter to a 5/$90 deal?? Ugh...(The guy is over 30, not that great defensively, despite the Gold Gloves, and has a career OPS+ 104. league average is 100. Just terrible...)
winstonopia - November 24, 2007 04:26 AM (GMT)
Yeah - but O-Cab was cool (as a sock at least).
Happy for Hunter - great guy, glad he got paid a lot. And so what if the Angels overpayed? Sucks for them! lol
deisel 10 - November 24, 2007 04:32 AM (GMT)
Yeah, I think the White Sox got the better end of the deal. The Angels are ridiculous, they overpaid for Matthews last year, and now he's going to move to right so Hunter can play, which pushes Figgins/Willets out, which is slightly ridiculous. Why I care, I don't know. But I do.
Pretty sad when A-Rod's $27 mil/year isn't looking that ridiculous, isn't it? (A-Rod at $27 mill is a lot better than Hunter at $18 mill, I'll tell you that much. I could get into the statistical analysis, but I'll spare you...)
winstonopia - November 24, 2007 04:50 AM (GMT)
And Rivera at.. what... 15 mill a year? Now that's nuts. Do you know how old he is? Ancient! He's probably a grandpa!
deisel 10 - November 24, 2007 01:13 PM (GMT)
Lol, yeah, that's slightly ridiculous...
winstonopia - November 24, 2007 01:14 PM (GMT)
and so is the $$$ they gave posada. sure - they can have him for that price!
deisel 10 - November 24, 2007 01:17 PM (GMT)
Yeah, it kind of cracks me up when Yankees fans compare Posada's deal to Varutek's. Varitek has two years left, and is currently a year younger than Posada. Plus Varitek calls a better game/is better defensively. No comparison, at all.
The Southern Acre - November 24, 2007 06:53 PM (GMT)
The thing is the Yankees were smart to resign them just not for so long. Posada and Rivera both have about two years left barring serious injurys, but beyond that they will just be relics that are taking up a roster spot. But about the money thing, they are both hall of famers and reguardless of thier age, they were going to command that much money, especially from a team like they Yankees who they know has it.
Delta Golf Sierra - November 25, 2007 03:40 PM (GMT)
I was thrilled with the Posada deal, I don't care how much money they gave him, it was a must-sign. The Yankees have no ML-ready prospects, and the free agent market for catchers is pitiful. They absolutely had to get him back - he's one of the best, if not the best, offensive catchers in baseball right now. He is likely to age better than the average catcher, since he was converted to a catcher in the minors and wasn't a full-time starter until I think 1999, so he has less wear and tear. He'll probably move to DH or 1B in the last two years of his contract anyway. And if you think Varitek is a better all-around catcher than Posada, I'd like to know what you're smoking. Posada is a potential HOFer, and Varitek is nowhere close.
The Rivera deal wasn't so great, he is definitely getting paid more than he is worth. Closers are a dime a dozen (see Toronto this year using Accardo when Ryan went down), and can be easily replaced. Rivera's contract was really a reward for past performance. He's still a great closer, but he is on a decline.
winstonopia - November 25, 2007 04:31 PM (GMT)
|And if you think Varitek is a better all-around catcher than Posada, I'd like to know what you're smoking. Posada is a potential HOFer, and Varitek is nowhere close.|
Not smoking a thing. Answer this; which catcher means more to his team?
deisel 10 - November 25, 2007 05:24 PM (GMT)
Posada is better offensively, I'll give you that. But Varitek all but runs the pitching staff, his defensive stats are better, and he's younger. he was four years younger than Posada is now when he signed his deal. Posada may age better, but Varitek is younger, and has a lot less time/money owed him.
Delta Golf Sierra - November 25, 2007 10:30 PM (GMT)
Sorry, his defensive stats are not better. They are nearly equal. Varitek's career fielding percentage is .993 and Posada is .992. The age difference is also negligible, as Posada is only 8 months older, and both became regular starters (>100 games at C) in the majors in 1999. Posada also started at the catcher position in the minors, whereas Varitek has been squatting much longer, making age irrelevant. Saying that Varitek runs the pitching staff better than Posada is pure speculation with no evidence to prove it.
Oh, and Varitek is so good defensively that the Red Sox needed to trade two of their better prospects for Doug Mirabelli just so he could catch a Wakefield knuckleball.
So which player means more to his team? I'll take the guy with the career OPS+ of 124, possible HOFer, and 4 WS rings over the guy with the career OPS+ of 103 and 2 rings.
utract - November 26, 2007 07:07 PM (GMT)
winstonopia - November 27, 2007 12:57 AM (GMT)
yes, he is.
as for Posada, I still disagree. You can argue minute statistics and details - who cares whose OPS has been better over the last eight years? and fielding percentage to the thousandth? big whoop. they're similar statistically. varitek has 200 less strikeouts in his career. posada has 200 more runs. so what?
varitek is the captain of the sox, and is always mentioned as being their heart and soul. he's clearly their leader, and though there is no quantifiable way to measure it, everyone knows it's true. I've never heard any of that about Posada. Does that mean he's a bad person? No. But not as valuable to the team. How can there be a soul on a soulless team anyway :P
Defensively? Want to use stats? Posada has 75 errors to JV's 58. Posada has had more runners steal against him as well. And, most importantly, Posada's CERA (pitchers' ERA w/ catcher behind plate) is higher than Varitek's. But again, it's more than stats.
Last of all, think of this scenario... The Yankees without Jorge Posada. No big deal, right? If you asked 1000 yankee fans, I bet most would shrug it off assume the other seven sluggers in the lineup could step up. But the Red Sox without Varitek? They struggle. The pitchers don't know what to do. The sox lose games. They couldn't survive, in the short term, at least. If 'tek had gone down during the playoffs, we'd have been in deep shit. That's how you can tell which is worth more to their team.
Delta Golf Sierra - November 27, 2007 04:20 AM (GMT)
So you dismiss my stats by saying that stats don't matter, and then you proceed to present more stats. Interesting debate strategy. :huh:
|You can argue minute statistics and details - who cares whose OPS has been better over the last eight years? and fielding percentage to the thousandth? big whoop. they're similar statistically. varitek has 200 less strikeouts in his career. posada has 200 more runs. so what?|
In fact, my point was that they are similar statistically in terms of defense. The OPS+ (that's OPS above league average, with 100 being equal to league average) stats prove that Posada is better offensively. Varitek is barely an above-average hitter.
|Last of all, think of this scenario... The Yankees without Jorge Posada. No big deal, right? If you asked 1000 yankee fans, I bet most would shrug it off assume the other seven sluggers in the lineup could step up. But the Red Sox without Varitek? They struggle. The pitchers don't know what to do. The sox lose games. They couldn't survive, in the short term, at least. If 'tek had gone down during the playoffs, we'd have been in deep shit. That's how you can tell which is worth more to their team.|
That's because the Yankees have better depth in their lineup. Posada has put up outstanding numbers in his career, nearly HoF quality numbers, but has been overshadowed by other great hitters around him in the lineup. I can't speak for all Yankee fans, but to me, Posada has been one of the most valuable members of the team over the past 10 years - right up there with Jeter, Williams, and Rivera. He is even more valuable to them now, because there is a serious lack of replacements for him that can put up the numbers that he can.
And the MVP voters agree with me - Posada has finished 3rd and 6th in MVP voting. Varitek has never finished higher than 21st.
And the pitchers don't know what to do when Varitek isn't catching??? Please. Wakefield has done pretty well for himself without having Varitek's magical powers.
winstonopia - November 28, 2007 03:47 AM (GMT)
Knuckleballers don't count - Tek is not Wake's catcher.
I hold my ground that comparing minute stats doesn't matter. You can compare the same stats ten different ways and reach ten different conclusions - they are similar enough.
MVP voting? A joke. There are a hundred million fairweather fans in this country and abroad... it's fan voting, isn't it? And, anyway, the all-stars nowadays are the glitzy power hitters, not the players who mean the most to their team.
I wish there was a way to find the Sox's winning percentage with and without Tek. And the same for the Yankees and Posada.
Delta Golf Sierra - November 28, 2007 04:13 AM (GMT)
|Knuckleballers don't count - Tek is not Wake's catcher.|
I'm aware of that - hence my point that he is not a great defensive catcher.
|I hold my ground that comparing minute stats doesn't matter. You can compare the same stats ten different ways and reach ten different conclusions - they are similar enough.|
There is no stat that you can show me that leads to the conclusion that Varitek is a better hitter than Posada. And as I showed, they are about even defensively. But stats don't matter to you when they disprove your notions, so I digress.
|MVP voting? A joke. There are a hundred million fairweather fans in this country and abroad... it's fan voting, isn't it? And, anyway, the all-stars nowadays are the glitzy power hitters, not the players who mean the most to their team.|
No, MVP voting is not done by the fans. It is done by the Baseball Writers Association of America, or something like that. These are people whose job it is to cover the game everyday. All-star voting is by the fans, which is why I didn't mention it. But while we're on the subject, Posada is a 5-time all-star, while Varitek has been there twice. You would think with as large a fan base as the Red Sox have, he would have gotten in more often if he was so great.
|I wish there was a way to find the Sox's winning percentage with and without Tek. And the same for the Yankees and Posada.|
I can tell you without looking at any stats that both teams will have better records when their best players are on the field.
winstonopia - November 29, 2007 09:21 PM (GMT)
But how much better? I bet it's a ridiculous stat with the sox. He means that much.
|No, MVP voting is not done by the fans. It is done by the Baseball Writers Association of America, or something like that. These are people whose job it is to cover the game everyday. All-star voting is by the fans, which is why I didn't mention it. But while we're on the subject, Posada is a 5-time all-star, while Varitek has been there twice. You would think with as large a fan base as the Red Sox have, he would have gotten in more often if he was so great.|
My mistake. But neither Posada nor Vtek are MVP's, so... And the Yankees have more fans than every other team combined, so I don't want to hear a thing about the all-star team. Rumour is Yi Jianlin will make the all-star team as a WRITE IN candidate this year! just because so many chinese vote for him.