Title: 2 vs. 2 game
Description: Need Help!
Hillbilly Carl - March 5, 2009 08:32 PM (GMT)
My brother and I are playing a team game against some guys in our league. They are taking Tomb Kings and Ogres and we are taking Bretonnians and Wood Elves. I don't know what they will be taking, but our army is awesome!
Lord on Forest Dragon
Helm of the Hunt
Spear of Twilight
Annoyance of Netlings
3x10 glade guard
5 Wild Riders
Lord on Pegasus
12 Knights of the Realm
12 Knights of the Realm
9 Knights Errant
3 Pegasus Knights
3 Pegasus Knights
9 Grail Knights
We have no magical defense but against the easy-to-cast Tomb King and Ogre magic a scroll caddy wouldn't be much use. We'd have to go magic-heavy ourselves and that would mean sacrificing our close combat and movement dominance.
Here's where I need your help. I know what I'm likely to face in the Ogre half of our opponent's army, but I have almost no experience against Tomb Kings. I know that killing the Hirophant is important and I think we have the manouverability to do that by turn 2 or 3 but I don't know what to expect otherwise. Any tips you have would be great!
Geep - March 6, 2009 07:09 AM (GMT)
In my (very limited) experience with Tomb Kings the Heirophant has an annoying habit of flying from unit to unit, making him very hard to kill. In one game I was able to scare him out of a unit and behind some cover, and by luck had a lone noble with Hail of Doom Arrow nearby :biggrin: I was still lucky to kill him given his saves though...
Also, keep an eye out for Tomb Scorpions- able to deploy in your half and charge in the same turn, as well as being damn tough- I hate the tunneling rules (consider the glade guard gone very quickly). I don't think I've ever had more than 1 movement phase to get away from the marker, and it can charge further than foot troops can march anyway, so there's no running away.
As you'd expect with skeletons you can laugh at most of their basic troops- you can hit and run against characters with very little danger (unless you fail to kill the characters). Even their archery can be almost ignored (although they always hit on a 5+ - even against skirmishers in forest and large targets standing right in front of them).
Some of their special characters can make these basic units considerably more powerful though- I don't know many details. One character gives all bowmen poison arrows...
Hillbilly Carl - March 6, 2009 04:43 PM (GMT)
Thanks for the reply Geep, I've only played against Tomb Kings twice with dwarfs so I have no idea how to play against them with wood elves. My bretonnian allies should help out though, we have a lot of flying (2 flying characters and 2 units of pegasus knights) in addition to the 1 unit of scouts (waywatchers) and 1 unit of fast cavalry (wild riders) so I'm confident that we will be able to hunt down and kill the hirophant pretty easily no matter where he tries to hide. As for the tomb scorpion, I'm not too concerned about it, I'm going to spread out the glade guard units and if he focuses on them, then our more dangerous knight units are that much safer.
I think the key to this game is going to be combined charges so that we can kill everything and not risk getting bogged down in combat. I might also swap out my wardancer character and treekin for 2 level 2 spellsingers so that we can treesing a bit to help us outmanouver them even more.
On an unrelated note, this game is happening pretty much right after work so this morning I was going to put my warhammer stuff in my trunk and head straight there. For some reason though I forgot my army at home. On the way to work I got rear-ended and my trunk is all smashed up! If I had put my army in my trunk like I had planned I could have lost it all.
Silly Dragon Elf the Third - March 7, 2009 11:31 AM (GMT)
From what i have heard of the tomb kings (but no games against them so far) is one very scary thing to us called the Casket of Souls (i think its casket o' something). It affects those with line of sight to it (remember skirmishers have 360 LOS). And its magical. I think (though this is a guess) that it does something like D6 hits at some kind of strength (4?) to all units with line of sight. Though how much of that is true i don't know as i am shooting in the dark here. All i know for certain is that a Heirophant likes to ride around on it (and gets some kind of ward save?) with some guards. Abit like an anvil of doom? :uhhhh: Ah ignore me!
The scorpion has already been said as my friend (Dark Elves at the time) got massacred by just that at 750pts.
The Tomb Giant can be devastating with its unstoppable charge rule. For every wound it makes it gets another attack and for every wound it makes from those it gets another attack! It could keep going until your dead! Especially to our squishy elves. Don't get charged make your brettonian attl take it down with a knights charge or throw your treeman at it (in theory it doesn't stand a chance).
Basic troops may not be hard as nails stats wise but with unbreakable and cheap spells from which the TK can cast to bring them back they could hold a wardancer charge and get the numbers back (especially with no magic defense) and now you lost your momentum and wasting your unit in another round of combat.
I think the tactic they will use is big blocks of TK for anvils and then bull charges to bring you down on the flank. Brett cav is hard but if they don't kill every model (with crumble etc) then they aren't going to overrun and get out the way of any flank charges from high strength can openers like the ogres.
In theory combined charges will work very well but remember with your dragon and all knight bretts you will be outnumbered by units and models.
Good luck! Bretts and Woods are a good alliance! Rules and fluff wise!
Hillbilly Carl - March 7, 2009 01:59 PM (GMT)
Well, we played our game last night and it was a massacre for us! It was looking pretty grim in the first turn when they magically charged their unit of chariots with a tomb king into a unit of our glade guard with both spellsingers in it! I thought the chariots only moved 7" (charge 14") but to my suprise they go 8" (charge 16"). The glade guard were destroyed, lost one spellsinger but the other fled. The chariots pursued into my brother's grail knights! Fortunately for us they held and we counter-charged with pretty much everything, destroying them fairly quickly and from there the game was pretty much in the bag for us. We dominated them in the movement phase with all of our fliers and they just didn't have an answer for our knights. My general on a dragon charged his unit of maneaters with a tyrant in hopes of a challenge (I had annoyance of netlings) but he declined and my lightly armoured lord was cut down. Fortunately the dragon itself was more than a match for the maneaters and ended up winning the combat and running down the cowardly tyrant. My 8 wardancers were superb, chewing their way through 2 units of Ushtabi, I can't say enough good things about these guys, I only wish I had more! My wild riders did alright, they killed a unit of leadbelchers and then got charged by his bone giant. They held against it for a few turns and held it up just long enough for the grail knights to get a flank charge to destroy it. My glade guard were pretty effective, killing 2 units of bulls and a tomb scorpion. Overall we played a smart game (other than the first turn) and I was happy with the result. I really like my lord's combo (Killing blow spear, helm of the hunt and annoyance of netlings) for killing enemy characters but he isn't quite as survivable as I would like. I think maybe giving him a ward save rather than the annoyance would be better. Thanks for the tips guys, hopefully I'll get some more games in soon. I'd like to do a battle report with pictures and stuff sometime but I need to find an opponent who is willing to take the time to take notes and stuff.
Geep - March 8, 2009 12:30 AM (GMT)
Sounds like a good game Hillbilly Carl- well done.
You've raised something I hadn't thought of before though- if the chariots charged the glade guard, with two spellsingers inside the unit, and all glade guard are wiped out, at what point do the characters seperate? Would it be as soon as there is no unit to hold them together, giving you two rolls to flee? Or would it happen in your own movement phase, so you only make one flee roll and apply it to both characters?
Also, SDETT- the casket of souls basically casts a banshee scream at the entire table. It can be dispelled (and I think comes either first or last in the Heiratic order), affects anyone with LOS to the casket, and causes a number of wounds to the unit equal to 2D6+2 - the unit's leadership. Not as nasty as it could be against high Ld elves, but it also ignores toughness, saves, and we tend to have lots of small units where the casualties hurt.
Don't forget though that you'll get dispel dice from wardancers etc. against the casting.
Nightstalker - March 8, 2009 04:45 AM (GMT)
he had more than five maneaters in a unit?? Otherwise he couldn't refuse your challenge
@ Geep you raised a couple of points that are regarded in the February FAQ on the GW site. First of all the characters seperate at the next available time (end of the phase i think it is that or the start of the movement phase, tho i lean towards the latter).
Secondly magic resistance is now very specific and only affects spells cast directly at a unit (so the casket of souls would be put down to a "does it target the unit or is the spell cast on the casket" question). Personally I've always pushed that the casket should operate like an anvil in that it works in the shooting phase (as every single army seems to have a mage who knows how to banish rogue spirits otherwise)
Hillbilly Carl - March 8, 2009 05:35 AM (GMT)
His tyrant was in a unit of 5 maneaters so technically he shouldn't have been able to refuse the challenge but it was already pretty evident that we were going to win so I let it slide.
I'm kind of sorry they didn't take the casket, it would have been an easy thing to take down with our abundance of fliers! I also agree that it should operate in the shooting phase but then it would have to be toned down a bit.