Below is a list of what I have for woodelves. I need help making a 2000 point list. My son has high elves and is constanly kicking my behind. I need a list that can give him a run for his money. I am not against adding new models if need be. Thanks for any and all help.


BRANCHWRAITH DRYCHA
WOOD ELF LORD ON STAG
24 Glade Guard
10 Glade Riders
68 Dryads.
Male Spellsinger casting
Male Spellsinger casting
Female Spellsinger

Wood Elf Eternal Guard 6

TREEMAN
WARDANCER LORD
SISTERS OF TWILIGHT ON FOREST DRAGON
FAY ENCHANTRESS
WAYWATCHERS 9
Wardancers 9
War eagle with archer 4
War eagle with spellsinger
Treekin 4
Lord on Dragon 1

Are those the models you have??

Read things before posting.

Lmao :happy:

Hello darkangel and welcome to the lost glade, could I tempt you into posting in the intro section where you can apply for a kindred and tell us all alittle bit about yourself :biggrin: I'll have a look at what I can come up with for you though no doubt somebody with alittle more know how will beat me to it. SDETT is a high elf player here so perhaps he could give you some insight in how to defeat them :wink:

Thanks SeanyPrawny and I did as you asked.

Could you give us a quick list of what your son uses ie. magic heavy or lots of small elite units etc. that way we can tool you up better to fend him off :smile:

Hello.

First of i would use as much shooting as possible. Take some eagles too to destroy his bolt throwers (any HE player will have these). Spearmen are very hard and will do well against Wood elves. Never charge the front as you will get 15 attacks at WS4 S3 striking first. 16 with a champ and if he goes with 6 wide (like i will be doing at higher points) thats alot to destroy that unit of 7 Wardancers of yours. Shooting can take 'em out though as only T3 and 5+ save. But you should know these things already. One unit i would take is Phoenix guard against WE. Swordmasters are a definite no as any and all shooting will destroy them pronto (you got to be insane if you let them reach your lines without a scratch). The only weakness for my own army is mass shooting as i take lots of magic defense and focus alot on combat and seeing as Dispell dice don't stop arrows and bolts...

For Wood Elves the new Asur are hard to beat. But like all enemies of the Asrai you need tactics. Movement for the Asur is slow compared to yours as most troops are blocks.

Your first target should be fast cav, scouts, eagles. Anything that moves quickly. Then after these the elits like Swormasters. then multi charge etc the 'left overs' but only on your own terms. Take control of the movement phase and you control the game. Don't rush into things the game can be won on turn 6 as well as turn 2.

Asur magic is good and most item lists have a whole page to themselves (like a whole page of Arcane items as we only get half a page).

Without looking at both lists i can't really say more than that. But put yourself in the High Elves shoes. Take a look at their book and try to make a list. I bet you will be surprised as how hard it is with so many points expensive models. Characters like Mages are very expensive for what they do compared to others.

I shall wait for your list and see how it could do against my own Asur list. Posting my advice and tips.

SDETT

Thanks Silly Dragon Elf the Third. He usually takes about 24 archers, three or four bolt throwers, two blocks of mounted units, prince tyrion and spearmen. He is also very heavy magic. I threw 60 dryads at one mounted unit and tyrion and they just sat there getting killed every turn without being able to do any real damage to his units. Seems since he ranks up and I do not his rank bonus's force me to run nearly every combat.

Tyrion eh? Yeah that guy is powerful and a bugger to kill even if he is a T3 elf. Very strong too. My advice is to get a noble with a great weapon or something and Annoyance of Netlings. Challenge him and he will accept (if he does not then you get to nominate one character to sit at the back of the unit doing nothing, Nominate Tyrion, Bye bye!). Except that just avoid him and go for the flanks trying not to get into close combat with him. Not much to say really as he can even go toe to toe with Archeon now, though probably lose but has a better chance then most people do.

Lots of shooting eh? mmm i was not expecting that. Lets think. Wood Elves have a good selection of war machine hunters. Use the Waywatchers, Glade Riders, Warhawk Riders, Great Eagles, Scouts etc to get the bolt throwers as these really are only good at range and once they die its an easy 100 victory points to you.

Magic heavy too? Can't be that much at 2000pts using Tyrion. I guess two mages. Right take a Branchwraith lv1 and cluster of radiants raising your Dice to 4. Another with two scrolls and you got 5 and scrolls. That should be enough against two wizards as he likes to get his cav in fast i expect.

Dragon Princes too i expect. Nasty unit and with Tyrion thats a big ouch. Ever thought about Eternal Guard? Stubborn with Noble ld9? Take the Noble with Annoyance and maybe Rageth's wildfire blades (more attacks and flaming to get rid of Regeneration Edit: scratch that just remembered he is immune to flaming attacks). Actually second thought take a great weapon or something to negate armour saves. Killing blow? He only gets his Ward save against that. As the Eternals say "we shall not move!" your own flanking forces charge and surround him.

Spearmen are a bugger for Wood Elves (or anyone really). I tried them out against my Wild riders and at the front charge they die horribly and at the flank or rear i always lose a couple of models to Speed of Asuryan. So combat they are good at? Shoot them!

Avoid his own shots best you can. Use terrain to your advantage making it block line of sight. Or do what i do and charge a great eagle into flank you can only lose by 1 CR a turn (outnumber) as he will be hard to wound you. Every turn the archers are in combat with eagle is one less turn of shooting. If they kill it oh well 50pts. If they pursue it ha ha they are facing the wrong direction now! Another turn with no shooting or at least -1 to hit. I tried it and it works rather well if it don't get shot to pieces first. Or does he take them in blocks like spearmen? Or in two ranks? As 24 is a strange number thats even two units of 12, ok i suppose but i like the usual 10 myself.

Waywatchers, Wardancers can both killing blow the Dragon Princes, really without the armor they are just expensive elves. Arcane Bodkins and Bow of Loren? Hail of Doom Arrow? They can both wither down his numbers (making them less effective).

Need anything else then just ask away and i would also like to see your lists to see what playing style you go for.

SDETT

WIP just in case you wonder why it's not finished...

Have edited the list to only include IMO the uselful units..

First things first, I would have a word with your son about his list, if he wants to encourage his Dad to play WFB with him, he needs to tone down the Cheese factor abit. 3-4 RBTs and Tyrion! That's a tournament list for Sigmar's sake.

Ask him to play a friendly list, drop Tyrion (and any special characters) and limit the RBT's to 2 (follow the rule of 3, is if you have 3 of the same non core slot, it's a no no).. He will still have a competitive list with out having to resort to dirty tactics... (also no blooming star dragons either)..

One fun way of doing a battle is to simply ban lords, this way you dont get the
Uber over kill characters that can ruin a battle and stops the worst of the special characters being used...

I shall give you some good ideas for your list (that will be a good all rounder hopefully, not just for fighting HE)

If you are taking Lords then:

Your General:

Highborn
Light armour, Shield, Great Weapon
Bow of Loren
Arcane Bodkins
Amber pendant
246 Pts

Put him in a unit of Glade guard

14 Glade Guard with full command
Aech - the banner of Springtide
217 Pts


Place this unit in the middle of your deployment zone. If you are on a hill, in 2 ranks of 7, otherwise in a long line, use your free wood to give them some extra cover if you want. Use this unit to bait his cavalry. You will get at least 2 turns of shooting off and a stand and shoot (using the banner). Your noble will be firing 4 arrows off a turn, hitting at long range on 2's and wounding on 4's with NO armour save, goodbye elite cavalry. Your glade guard will take down the odd one as well, especially at short range. If anything does live to charge you, reform into 3 ranks of five (if you have taken no casualties) or at least 2 ranks. Your Lord will now be strking first (even against HE's) on at least 2 bases, with his 4 S6 attacks. if he challenges, use your champion to take the hits. Leave your lord to chop up rank and file or what's left after all your shooting.
Your CR will be good, with being on a hill, a couple of ranks, standard and outnumber....
If he tries to outflank your unit, remember you can wheel them to get LOS and still not have a -1 to hit.

However he might throw more units at that unit than you can cope with, so this is where your second hero comes in:

Hero:

Noble
Light armour, Shield, Great Weapon
Hail of doom arrow
Helm of the hunt
158 PTS

Aaah the alter noble :love: never leave home without one.

Now this chap zooms around with his 18" march and kills things, very good for protecting the flanks of your generals unit.
First turn march him up the board into some cover is possible, here he will march block the incoming HE cavalary etc and wait.

Make sure he is out of lOS of wizards and in cover from missile fire.
Now if he seems to be sneaking some fast cav or a chariot down the flank in order to get your Glade guards flank, unleash the Hail of doom, you will on average get 9 S4 arrows hitting on 2's ( I tend to roll quite well and get 12 upwards) and wounding elves on 3's and chariots on 4's, this should take out the unit. If he hs nothing on the flanks, go for whatever unit he is hiding his mage in, be it 10 archers or spearmen, the HOD should tear through it like butter and hopefully make them panic. Now with his HOD used up, wait till you see a nice juicy Cav flank and charge with your 6S6 attacks on the charge, you will be hitting everything on 3's with your WS7 and wounding on 2's. Yes you will get hit first but so long as it as a flank, you only need to avoid one single attack. Plus you do have a 4+ Armour save (3+ if you dont use the GW).. This should wipe out a unit, or hold up a unit ( you will usually need 3 kills to win a CC against a 5-6 man cav unit with banner).. Repeat the process until he dies, you can always suicide charge a HE unit to take out a mage, avoid uit s with unit champions that can challenge, even if you break , they aint catching you with your 3D6 flee. Also very good at taking out RBt crew, who cant stand and shoot, get behind those lines and charge through all his RBT's... he will die eventually, but pick your targets carefully, avoid magic LOS and he will earn back his points in spades!


Hero:
Spellsinger Lvl 1
2 Dispel scrolls
140 pts

Simple slot to fill, gives you 3 DD and 2 scrolls, choose the spells to dispel wisely, let through the spells that dont directly affect you here and now. Use those scrolls for the big rolls on the nasty spells... Dont attempt to cast anything in your go, dont want to risk a misast. Get the mage in a wood away from the edge asap.

Fourth hero is a contentious one, you could not bother at all, you could take another lvl 1 scroll caddy, you could go for a BSB (support the Treeman or GG unit) or a Wardancer noble with the blades of loec - but I'll leave those choices to you to play around with. Simply drop one of the core units to free up the points.

Core: (along with your GG unit I suggest)

10 Glade Guard + musician
126 PTS

10 Dryads
120 PTS

10 Dryads
120 PTS

5 Glade Riders + musician
129 PTS

Use the other GG unit near your main one, use them to kill off any other units threatening the main one. Drayds as screens, do not charge them into big units of spearmen etc head one! Get into the flanks, hoepfullt units that have been whittled down by missile fire, remember so long as you outnumber you only need to win by 1 to break the unit with fear (aside from snake eyes).. Use the Dryds in Cc in combo with the other CC units.
Use the Glade riders to harry and chariot units or fats cav, shoot away and flee if charged, with the musician, they will be rallying on a 10 and can the move again..

Special:

3 Treekin
195 PTS

8 Wardancers
144 Points

Use the Treekin along with their big brother and the dryads for all your CC, not a lot can hurt them, even Rbts will struggle, so march them onwards, charge the front of a spearmen unit with these boys, and get the dryads or wardancers in the flank. Remember to protect the wardancers, they die real easy to missile fire. If he has RBT's on hills, wait till they are gone before moving these guys around, hug the terrain, stay in cover till the time is right..

Rare:

Treeman
285 PTS

5 Waywatchers
120 PTS

If he does not have RBT's on a hill, get these guys behind enemy lines, right up close, remember the RBT crews will have 360 LOS, so it can be hard to get them real close, but if you can tuck them right behind his elite cavalry, then you will be march blocking and shooting for at least 2 turns, hope to get those 6's for Killing Blow. If you cant get them behind enemy lines, get them in some cover near the middle and shoot away at the elite stuff, dont waste KB on R&F or chariots etc.

The list as it stand comes to exactly 2K and IMO would give you a real chance against most armies... Good luck!

Amarathine brooch gives you a 3+ ward save against non-magical attacks. Its the Amber pendant you want to get so to get rid of his ASF rule.

Against a list like that a magic heavy HE army will just laugh. One flames of the phoenix cast on the GG unit with Lord in will just make them explode. Sure scrolls are nice but not if he takes a lv4 with the book of hoeth, now watch as he casts irresistable nearly every time. Or take Teclis! Mwahahahahahahahah! Also Mages would be hidden inside Phoenix Guard if his smart, best place for them (or Swordmasters if against no shooting).

With only two scrolls you will find them being used quite early. Essential if he goes magic heavy.

Also he should be allowed to use Special Characters. Why not? Its legal. I agree not any Lord characters at the start but ones like Korhil should be ok. But why no more than 2 RBT? You are asking him to alter his list alot now. Perhaps he likes to use a defensive set up and fluffy like from Lothern or something. It doesn't do much anyways and is more of a disadvantage to him as they are expensive and only 6 shots each. Thats 24 shots powerful but at 400pts thats an expensive unit. AND easy to kill.

Maybe instead of saying "oh don't take this and that" say "well i have to rethink my tactics and will beat you next time!". I am getting sick of people only fighting against Asur with restrictions to them.

Any enemy can be fought and killed. You just have to know how.

SDETT

Thank you both, FatOlaf and Silly Dragon Elf the Third for your words of wisdom. My son does indeed take the Book of Hoeth and casts mostly irrestible force spells. He does not however usually put his mages with units. They are usually at the back with his bolt throwers. He takes as much offensive magic as he can. I shall let you folks know what happens with our next match and your excellent advice so far.

I agree with pretty much all of Fat Olaf and SDETT's advice so far.

Your son does use a very 'cheesy' list, but a great list in the hands of a poor player can still be beaten by good tactics and in my experience a cheesy list is the sign of a poor player.
Two obvious tricks to try are:
1. Beat him at the shooting game- IMO, WE's should always have at least 20 Glade Guard (and more shots from other units too). Deploy out of range of your son's archers, use your movement phase to get in range and shoot without penalty- whoever gets the most casualties first gets a huge advantage and since he'll have to move and shoot to get your archers (or, if you deploy behind a hill, cannot shoot at all) you don't end up relying on that 'going first' roll. A hail of doom arrow will more than likely tip this shoot out quickly in your favour too- Don't be afraid of using it early on something as weak as archers as you can be almost guaranteed it'll cause casualties and will mean you're not worried about return shots for the rest of the game.
The bolt throwers are an obvious spanner in the works here- I hate those things. Units of glade riders, warhawk riders and great eagles can reach them quickly (and deal with them in combat) but small dryad units may be a better bet- skirmishers, T4 and a ward save mean that when the bolt throwers inevitably unleash on them they have the greatest chance of survival (and immune to psychology means they're still a threat until they're all dead- no running from the annoying shots).

2. To help with both your shooting and against his combat, deploy your archers in forest and move them to the forest edge in your turn. Shots at them have -1 to hit but, more importantly, if charged you can flee through the forest and hopefully get the enemy unit trapped for a turn or two in the forest (with a failed charge move)- at worst they'll still be unlikely to charge next turn due to the forest restricting line of sight. To really cap this tactic off have a mage with the deepwood sphere nearby- if the enemy is trapped in the forest move the mage in and the hurt will begin. This is a fairly simple tactic and it won't take long before people stop charging at the things in the woods, but this is also good- it means you're likely to have more point blank shots with your archers.

3. Bait and flee- a very simple tactic but it can be a hard one to ignore. Use glade riders (as they are fast cav. but not immune to psychology) to form a screen in front of units like wardancers (which are immune to psychology). Hopefully the enemy will charge the glade riders, in which case they flee (this is where fast cav get an advantage) and leave the charging unit in range of a charge from the wardancers in your turn (being immune to psychology means it doesn't matter if the glade riders flee though them). It takes a fair bit of practice to get used to estimating the required distance between the bait unit and the counter-charging unit (and this distance changes depending on enemy unit movement) but this is a good tactic vs knights (more silver helms than dragon princes though- especially when Tyrion's involved with the DP's).

As mentioned these are simple tactics, but you may as well give them a go.

Yes I meant the amber pendant... Corrected..

But Sorry SDEtT - Completely disagree, the HE list is horrible and any WE list would struggle unless he went 2 treemen, BSB..... Why should he take special characters and 3 RBT's, he's playing the HE like they needed to be played in 6th.. Now you dont need to go magic heavy and hide behind RBT's...

It is no fun as a learning player to be constantly beaten by a tournament style cheese list. Calm the list down and give old dad a chance..

And as for magic protection, if he is taking a lvl 4 with the book, it's not going to matter what you take as everything is cast as irresistable. So just stick to my plan and see what happens..

By the way what points are we talking here as your son seems to be taking a lvl 4 mage AND tyrion as well in 2K???

I'm not saying only fight HE with restrictions, I'm saying only fight a HE lists that is not absolute cheese and not fiun in the slightest to play against.. 3 RBT's and magic heavy and SC's is absolute tournament beard playing..
And this applies to any list you fight (for fun!)

And not every list can be beaten, every army yes! but every list no! which is why at UK GT's you seem the same Empire and HE lists in the top 10, time and time again...

I disagree, every list can be beaten It just takes a sound tactical mind to go up against them and win were others have failed. We could both play the same list but no doubt I would lose more games than you because I have the tactical thinking of a tranqualised sloth. I say tool up a list to beat his current list, It would be a challenge worthy of song and much ale shall be drunk upon your victory! (sorry I'm in space wolf mode) FOR RUSS AND THE WOLFTIME!!!!!!!

mad rant aside, the list does seem suspect with 2 lord type characters in hwat would appear to be 2k points.

And again SP, I disagree, not every list can be beaten so long as you have a competent general.
The only way dad is going to beat junior is by tailoring his list big time, which is not a practise that is beneficial long term. The list I suggested is a good all round list that is balanced.

Seriously what is wrong with asking junior to tone down his Uber list a bit, seriously he must have won a lot already with it..

Drop the SC's and just balance it out a bit, therefore fun for both sides and experience gained for dad..

Otherwise we have to max out the shooting for the WE's ands the game turns into dice rolling to hit (ie 40K) which is something we want to avoid...

It was a 3000 point list we last played. The next will be 2000 as I am hoping it will allow me to learn a little easier. Thanks again for all the help.

You went into the game using 3000pts? That is jumping in the deep end. I only play 3000pts very rarely and my lists are mostly at 2500pts (though now due to me restarting Asur and friends starting new armies its more like 1000pts). I actually suggest 1000pts. This will restrict BOTH of you and having no lords is great for beginers.

Firstly all you need is say two or maybe three great eagles (or waywatchers) thats what 100pts? That with good movement and TACTICS can spell the doom of his army. He has 3 RBTs and now i have learned he keeps them at the back with Archmages?! IS he mad! oh yes. They would be relatively undefended and such a points sink. Take them out and all he really has is that cav unit which you use an Eternal unit with BSB or just a normal Noble to hold them while your hammers (treemen, Wardancers or whatever) hit their flanks or better still rears or both! Most offensive spells are 24" so if he keeps them at the back and as immobile as the RBT then just stay out of range as he will still close into you with his Knights (overconfidence+impatience can itself defeat your opponent).

Do what WE do best! Gang up and kill each unit one at a time. Great eagles and Dryads moving to destroy RBTs. Even some Glade Riders and Waywatchers too as this is where most of the pathetic 'cheese' is comming from. Sure alot of points you are using to destroy them but if they so instrumental to his victory then they are points well spent. Using a cheap Noble with annyoance of Netlings will defuse Tyrion. What 400pts for Tyrion being made useless in a duel against a (i think memory fading here) 100pts of a Noble (with only Annoyance) ha ha!. And annoyance is a great item (sorry sprite) to use against any army so 'balanced' and not tailored.

Also hiding the unit of GG in a forest can be a great idea but lets not forget that you are not the only ones who can deal damage with trees. Lore of Life, Master of the Woods. With his mage using offensive spells at a long range this lore is perfect also good against armies like WE as they rely so much on terrain and its fun to see the Players face as his tress smack their own allies. Its what i would use.

I would gladly face this army with my WE. Even a balanced list could defeat them, easily. You just have to know how! The only lists i have yet to be confident if Dwarve Gunlines and Skaven Gunlines.

Also may i add that defeating an army like this will be so satisfying to Dad that all those loses will seem nothing but past memories that will be often forgotten while his memory of the FIRST time he beat that 'cheesy' list would be lodged for as long as he plays Warhammer. Also while hard to beat it would prepare him for 'lesser' lists better. Look at the Spartans in 300 they train with next to no clothes in freezing weather as children against wolves too large for nature to say "hang on" are taught the way of the warrior very harshly...what is the outcome? a bloomin' hard guy who would kick anyones arse!

I suggest lowering points to at most 1500pts to allow you to get to grips with the game, your army and the rules. Then increase to higher points. It is what GW suggest and what i suggest.

SDETT

I'd like to thank you all for the help. I have since played three games, none against my son but have had:
Orks-tie
Empire-massacre
Vampire counts- lost a minor victory for VC.
Not sure I like fantasy as much as 40K but I will give it a try or two more before getting rid of them.

Good to hear you've had some success.
Getting a tie against orcs is slightly odd- in my experience they either roll well for animosity and the rest of their random stuff and massacre any opponent, or roll poorly and can be beaten a few snotlings. I guess average rolling is possible, but I've yet to see it...
VC can be a pretty tough army. To be a fairly new player and only have minor loss to them isn't bad- it'll probably take a while to find and exploit their weaknesses (as with most opponents really, VC are just one of the 'most different' armies).

I encourage you not to give up on Warhammer, regardless of how things go. I used to always be frequently slaughtered in my early games, but things improve. You can always play 40K and fantasy (I know I do).

Both the Ork player and myself are new and we think we messed up some of his rules. I wiped out everything except his black orks, but my treekin should likely have been able to deal with them had we had time.

Stick with it, WFB is game of of many parts with rules , rules galore...40K is about rolling dice... You will get better with every game you play and you will remember more and more of the rules as well with each battle..

The thing to remember as well is that you are starting with one of the most tactical armies to play. So it will take time and practise, practise, practise... :biggrin:

Waywatchers and scouts, deployed in any woods that may be lurking on his side of the board. They can:
- take out bolt throwers crews and mages lurking at the back
-disrupt march moves of any cavelry
-make charges of oppertunity into flanks or rear to negate rank bonus (ONLY WHEN SUPPORTED! They'd just die on their own!)

I'd make the mages top priority- denying High Elves their magical superioity can really swing the battle.

Also, take a lot of bows. We're the best archers in the game, so show the high elves that!
Toughness 3 elves drop like flys faced with massed arrows, especially at short range. Chuck enough arrows in his direction and even Tyrion will have cause to sweat.


Az

FatOlaf,
I have been using your suggested list and battle strategies and my games are improving, however I have made a few changes that are working for me. I have taken out the wardancers. I have had absolutly zero luck with them, it is user error I am sure but they were not working for me. In their place I have made the spellsinger level 2, added a branchwraith with athe spites to give an extra dispel die and added 3 more Glade gaurd. I also changed the great weapon on the Kidred hero to a second hand weapon. It seemed a waist to let his iniatitive nine go to waist and the extra attack gives him 6 on the charge. I am picky with the units I charge with him.

That's understandable, they are a tricky unit to get to grips with, but you will find against certain opponents, that they can be invaluable, their KB dance is very effective against heavily armoured Knights for instance.
But what you have now, is some good magic defence, which is needed as well, especially in this day an age of HE, VC and new Demons...

You see you would not have to be picky if he had a GW, you now have one extra attack but now need 3's against T3 and 4's against T4. With a GW you have 5 attacks that can take out a T4 chariot on 2's or really hurt Knights woudning on 2's giving them a -3AS..
especially with you having lost the wardancers, you really need something that can take out armour, hitting knights in the flank with a GW wielding alter noble is what it is all about. I really recommend giving him back the GW and not worrying about any other round of CC than the first, he wont stick around long enough most times anyway, use him to take out Knights, monsters, chariots, warmachine crew, or mages in units, make those attacks count, and then rely on your speed to get you away from danger if you have to flee...


But really good to see yoiur games are improving, WE are tough to learn but so rewarding with practise...