Title: Hit-&-Run fallback question?
Description: Warhawk Riders
WeeDawgNYC - April 17, 2007 08:01 AM (GMT)
If the "fall back" tactic is used & the unit moves through an enemy of more than 5 unit strength is the unit destroyed?
p.41 of the mini rulebook reads:
| Fleeing troops that have to move through non-fleeing enemy units with a unit strength of 5 or more are immediately destroyed as soon as they move into contact with such enemies.|
under the hit-&-run special rule it reads:
| This is treated like fleeing, ecept it does not cause panic to nearby units & the unit auto rally at the end of the fall back move.|
Hit-&-Run fallback question?
Geep - April 17, 2007 08:32 AM (GMT)
It'd be arguable, and you could always guess the side your opponent will be on...
As it isn't actually fleeing, I would say they are not destroyed but instead stop 1" away from the enemy unit (as all non-combatants must be separated by 1").
Being flyers, it could be argued that they could fly over the enemy (and so continue on past the enemy unit rather than stopping)- I can't remember if the rulebook mentions anything specific about fleeing flyers.
I'd expect some errata on this one day... maybe whenever they bring out the wood elf errata...
Silly Dragon Elf the Third - April 17, 2007 09:03 AM (GMT)
Its a 'special' kind of fleeing so i say no they are not destroyed. Unless you land on an enemy unit then yes you are destroyed.
Its like impassable terrain normal foot troops would die if they flee into it but flyers woudl go over it wouldn;t they? Its common sense at the end of the day and people who argue are rules lawyers and not worth playing against.
But yes it can certainly be argued. But i would say no you are not even if i was playing against wood elfs.
Zelt Arruin - April 17, 2007 09:12 AM (GMT)
I say they die. The move is treated as fleeing, not normal movement. so you follow the rules for fleeing with the exceptions noted in the rule. Just becuase it doesnt make sense does not mean that it isnt right. If you hit and run into an enemy unit, you die. Simple.
Servant of Isha - April 17, 2007 09:23 AM (GMT)
I'm not sure whether they'd be destroyed. If they aren't, then I think it's far more likely they'd be placed on the other side of the enemy (whether flying over or through), but to be honest I can't think of anywhere in the rules where this is even remotely clarified.
The lack of Errata is annoying to be sure... I may start up a thread which we can go through various things which are unclear, and also make a list of the things that need to be in the errata. It will also help to bring up things we can agree on (even if not clear to the letter) which we can put in our unofficial FAQ.
Servant of Isha.
the anti santa - April 17, 2007 12:19 PM (GMT)
i think I'd have to side with them being destroyed.
It sounds like it is treated as a normal fall back move aside from not causing panic checks and they auto rally. But it does not mention that they are immune to being destroyed by fleeing off the table.
So I think that they would also be destroyed by enemy units of US 5+ too that was brought in during 7th Ed.
Darkblade - April 17, 2007 12:52 PM (GMT)
Well remember one thing. When you move your fleeing move your are using your flying move if your a flyer. Ie you fly! In the same way as you may fly over other units using your normal fly move. If you think logical (Which is the number 1 rule in arguments!) then they will not be destroyed as they will not go through anything. They go OVER not through therefore they are not destroyed unless you acctualy hit the enemy. At least thats whats make sense. A rule lawyers and to be honest they should all be smacked with the BRBOD (Big Red Book Of DOOM) if they argue with that.
Zelt Arruin - April 17, 2007 07:19 PM (GMT)
I would have to disagree with you. If flyers fly over units when they flee, then why are they automatically destroied when they dont have hit and run. I really dont see the arguement here, and in fact, the 'rules lawyers' would be the people trying to claim that they would survive running into enemies. The rules clearly state that they would die, and now where does it say that they would fly over the enemy or otherwise survive.
Servant of Isha - April 17, 2007 07:39 PM (GMT)
Certainly I agree there; on the basis of flying only, they should be destroyed as this would be consistant. I myself am unsure because of hit & run itself. You'd expect it to be more orderly (they're doing it on purpose so...), which confuses the situation.
To go with the rules as they stand, I'd probably say they are destroyed, but it would be more into the feel of it if they weren't. Also if they are destroyed by this then there are even more reasons for people not to field them, which is a shame. Hopefully there will be an official FAQ & Errata that turns up eventually.
Servant of Isha.
sethayla - April 18, 2007 01:52 AM (GMT)
[/QUOTE]I would have to disagree with you. If flyers fly over units when they flee, then why are they automatically destroied when they dont have hit and run.[QUOTE]
Who says that they are? Pg 68 in the rules state that ALL flyers use their flying movement when they flee, meaning they are only dead if they land on a unit, the question I see here is if Warhawk riders would die when they land on the unit or would they hop over the unit or land 1 inch away.
To answer that, I would say that in that situation, they die if they loose combat or combat is a draw, but if elected to fall back, they hop over the unit.
Ps. "Use Flying movement" means FLYING in the air, unless the troops are as tall as the stratosphere, then they can be flown over.
Zelt Arruin - April 18, 2007 02:05 AM (GMT)
After reading the flying rule, when they flee, the only time they would get wiped out would be if they fled and landed on an enemy unit of unit strength 5 or more. Since the Hit and Run move is a flee move, they would only die if they landed on an enemy unit.
the anti santa - April 18, 2007 10:04 AM (GMT)
I've just re-read the Flyer rules too and it seems that flyers are immune to crossfie unless they land on an enemy unit that is US 5+.
This seems a bit silly to me and makes flyers really powerful, especially large targets who can charge over friends and enemies as it is.
Lynx - April 18, 2007 10:05 AM (GMT)
The answer is pretty simple really. When Flyers flee, they can choose to either flee by flying away 3D6", or flee on foot using their base movement (e.g. Warhawks have M1, so they would flee only 2D6" on foot). If they are 'flying' when fleeing, they may flee OVER enemy units if their movement allows them to. However if their flee move makes them LAND on an enemy unit, then are destroyed. If they are fleeing 'on foot', and their flee movement takes them through an enemy unit of US5 or more they are destroyed as, obviously, they are fleeing by foot, not by wing. (pg.68 of the WFRB, 'Fleeing and Pursuing')
So that brings me to WeeDawgs question:
|If the "fall back" tactic is used & the unit moves through an enemy of more than 5 unit strength is the unit destroyed?|
It all depends on whether the Warhawks flee by wing or by foot. As it doesn't say otherwise in the rules for 'hit-and-run', I assume you can still choose how you want to flee. So:
- If the unit flees by wing, they fly over any enemy units and are not destroyed. HOWEVER...if they END their flee move in an enemy unit of US5 or more, they are destroyed.
- If the unit flees on foot, and flees through an enemy unit of US5 and more, they are destroyed.
That should answer your question...I hope. Also, remember that Warhawks cannot fly in woods, so if they are fleeing in a forest they have to flee 'on foot'.
Silly Dragon Elf the Third - April 18, 2007 01:40 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Darkblade @ Apr 17 2007, 01:52 PM)|
| Well remember one thing. When you move your fleeing move your are using your flying move if your a flyer. Ie you fly! In the same way as you may fly over other units using your normal fly move. If you think logical (Which is the number 1 rule in arguments!) then they will not be destroyed as they will not go through anything. They go OVER not through therefore they are not destroyed unless you acctualy hit the enemy. At least thats whats make sense. A rule lawyers and to be honest they should all be smacked with the BRBOD (Big Red Book Of DOOM) if they argue with that. |
Totally agreed! :happy: Especially the BRBOD! (those who live by the book die by the book).
In such situations like this i say at the end of it that its common sense that takes place and decides the outcome (how would a flyer run? especially when i picture the warhawks swooping downwards from the air hitting killing a mage to then flying away into the horizon, or like the fellbeasts of LOTR attacking the men on the walls of minas tirith, they don't 'land').
Otherwise the warhawks will be so useless i will never take them instead go for a great eagle.
Anyways i think its all sorted now.
Servant of Isha - April 18, 2007 04:07 PM (GMT)
Seems like a good resolution. There's still the instance of landing on an enemy unit and whether they should be destroyed or moved forwards (hit and run only, not fleeing where they are destroyed), but it's small enough that we could easily concede to them being destroyed in that situation. Silly of me not to think of the situation from that angle...
Servant of Isha.
Aben Zin - April 18, 2007 07:40 PM (GMT)
I think y'all are missing something here. If the Warhawks are falling back from a hit and run, they must have charged in the first place so in most cases their "flee" move would be pretty much along the direction they took when they charged. As you can't charge over the heads of other enemies you won't flee into them. If you did charge in at an odd angle, decide to hit and run and are forced to flee directly into another enemy regiment, you probably deserve everything you get...
Zelt Arruin - April 18, 2007 08:33 PM (GMT)
But if the unit you are charging is on a hill, then you can charge over enemy units. That seems to be the normal senario here.
Servant of Isha - April 18, 2007 08:39 PM (GMT)
Or if you are on a hill to start with; you have line of sight due to the hill, and can fly over the enemy unit. A less likely scenario than the enemy on a hill (you wouldn't want your warhawks in such plain view), but it could happen.
Servant of Isha.
WeeDawgNYC - April 19, 2007 02:12 AM (GMT)
Aben Zin, they automaticly fall back if they lose combat or its a draw but have the option to do so if they win. Its agreed that they fly over an EITW & are only destroyed if they end there movement on them or flee on the ground (through them)
One quick off-topic question... does the Great Eagle use a 40x40mm base (warhawk) or a Monster size base? Thanks
Geep - April 19, 2007 03:08 AM (GMT)
50x50mm monster base. Rather annoying really... i'd prefer 40mm
sethayla - April 20, 2007 07:12 PM (GMT)
|The answer is pretty simple really. When Flyers flee, they can choose to either flee by flying away 3D6", or flee on foot using their base movement (e.g. Warhawks have M1, so they would flee only 2D6" on foot).|
Pg 68 in the Rule book says that Flyers ALWAYS use their flying movement to flee. (Check yourself but that's what was told to me). Does that mean that in a woods they use their ground movement, or they cannot flee?
Isn't a flyer's fleeing distance 4 d6?
Servant of Isha - April 20, 2007 08:41 PM (GMT)
According to pages 68 and 69, flyers always choose to fly when fleeing, but it also mentions that if there is a constraint (such as terrain) that prevents this, they'll flee 2D6 as ground movement.
Flyers may choose to use either flight or ground movement during pursuit. A Flying pursuit or flee move is 3D6, along with any other unit with a base movement of 7" or more.
Servant of Isha.
sethayla - April 21, 2007 01:50 PM (GMT)