Title: "Dwarves" or "Dwarfs"?
Description: A Question on Plural of "Dwarf"
Schmeag - November 26, 2006 07:21 AM (GMT)
The topic title is self-explanatory, but I'll write it again for your benefit. In the Warhammer World, is the plural for "Dwarf" spelt "Dwarves" or "Dwarf"?
Elberneth - November 26, 2006 07:57 AM (GMT)
In Warhammer the plural is Dwarfs, unlike in Lord of the Rings where Tolkien called them Dwarves because it went better with Elves
Spoony - November 26, 2006 09:28 AM (GMT)
Well, Dwarves does make more sense.
Schmeag - November 26, 2006 09:40 AM (GMT)
Before Tolkien came along, weren't "Elves" called "Elfs".
|Well, Dwarves does make more sense. |
I see that you're experiencing change in the English language first hand. :wink:
Altithir - November 26, 2006 01:32 PM (GMT)
I think there is already another topic with the answers youre looking for in General Off Topic
Nelyafinwë - November 26, 2006 01:58 PM (GMT)
Actually I thought Tolkien´s point when he spelled it dwarves was to distinguish them from the RL dwarfs...
juriko - November 26, 2006 02:56 PM (GMT)
I say that it should be DWARVES not DWARFS but that's just me...
Schmeag - November 27, 2006 05:08 AM (GMT)
|I think there is already another topic with the answers youre looking for in General Off Topic|
Could you please elaborate? I checked it, but couldn't find it.
Silly Dragon Elf the Third - November 27, 2006 12:20 PM (GMT)
Dwarves, Dwarfs? What does it matter just call em stunties!
But overall i think Dwarfs is batter. Just by the look of the word. The F in it looks better than V. Thats the only reason why i would use it.
But, for saying Dwarf as in the 1 Dwarf on his own then the F is the choice but i think it would change to Dwarves when your taking about more than 1, like a company of Dwarves.
Schmeag - November 27, 2006 12:28 PM (GMT)
Doesn't that mean that you favour 'Dwarves', and not 'Dwarfs'? In my opinion, 'Dwarves' sounds/feels much smoother.
Nelyafinwë - November 27, 2006 06:06 PM (GMT)
Dwarves should be the spelling if english ever followed their grammatical rules but since they don´t........... :happy:
Leto - November 27, 2006 06:29 PM (GMT)
I will stick to calling the Dorfs :happy:
juriko - November 27, 2006 08:36 PM (GMT)
yay! letos back but maybe he was just on when i wasnt'
i prefer to call them stunties
Schmeag - November 27, 2006 08:49 PM (GMT)
The Dwarfs should just be glad that they don't have you in their midst. :p
juriko - November 27, 2006 08:51 PM (GMT)
lol, i wouldn't last a day with them, those stupid stunties...
i don't like the stunties
Schmeag - November 27, 2006 08:58 PM (GMT)
That explains why you're collecting elves. :happy: Or is it elfs? :blink:
juriko - November 27, 2006 09:01 PM (GMT)
elfs or elves....
aha its elves just checked on the gw website
Schmeag - November 27, 2006 09:03 PM (GMT)
They should make it Dwarves to streamline it: Elves, Dwarves...
juriko - November 27, 2006 09:31 PM (GMT)
that would make more sense
Leto - November 27, 2006 10:02 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (juriko @ Nov 27 2006, 08:36 PM)|
| yay! letos back but maybe he was just on when i wasnt'|
i prefer to call them stunties
Have been playing Gears of War/PDZ alot (lol)
Knight of Isha - November 30, 2006 08:12 AM (GMT)
The correct English plural of the word 'dwarf' is 'dwarfs'. Tolkien was aware of this and consciously chose to write it with a 'v'. He was a professor of English after all, and knew all about the language.
Now, Tolkien talks about the plural of dwarf in Return of the King, in Appendix F. He states the following -
| It may be observed that in this book as in The Hobbit the form dwarves is used, although the dictionaries tell us that the plural of dwarf is dwarfs. It should be dwarrows (or dwerrows), if singular and plural had each gone its own way down the years, as have man and men, or goose and geese. But we no longer speak of a dwarf as often as we do of a man, or even of a goose, and memories have not been fresh enough among Men to keep hold of a special plural for a race now abandoned to folk-tales, where at least a shadow of truth is preserved, or at last to nonsense stories in which they have become mere figures of fun. But in the Third Age something of their old character and power is still glimpsed, if already a little dimmed; these are the descendents of the Naugrim of the Elder Days, in whose hearts still burns ancient fire of Aule the Smith, and the embers smolder of their long grudge against the Elves; and in whose hands still lives the skill in work of stone that none have surpassed.|
It is to mark this that I have ventured to use the form dwarves, and remove them perhaps, from the sillier tales of these latter days. Dwarrows would have been better; but I have used that form only in the name Dwarrowdelf, to represent the name of Moria in the Common Speech: Phurunargian. For that meant 'Dwarf-delving' and yet was already a word of antique form.
Many other fantasy settings ape Tolkien on this, due to his great impact on the field of fantasy literature.
However, Games Workshop does not. A cursory glance at GW's website
clearly indicates that they use the plural 'dwarfs'. This is therefore the correct term to use when discussing the dwarfs of the Warhammer World.
I don't know why this comes up so often or why people are so confused by it. It's extraordinarily simple. GW uses the plural 'dwarfs' in all of their publications. This is readily apparent to anyone who reads said publications. 'Dwarfs' is correct when discussing GW dwarfs. 'Dwarves' is not. End of conversation.
Silly Dragon Elf the Third - November 30, 2006 10:38 AM (GMT)
Thats interesting and your correct.
But for the sake of going against the crowd as i so often try to do. I will say "Dwarves". I know its 'not right' but i like the looks of the word better. Also I always say Elves so i'll say dwarves to fit them together. Well actually i normally say elfs but now i say elves.
Me confused. :huh: (lol)
Spoony - November 30, 2006 08:40 PM (GMT)
Dwarros. That kind of rolls of the tounge, eh? :biggrin:
Knight of Isha - November 30, 2006 11:09 PM (GMT)
I have to admit, 'dwarrows' does sound kind of dopey...
Underlord Burrows - December 1, 2006 01:48 AM (GMT)
I am with SDETT. Dwarves just looks so much better and more sensible as does Elves.
Knight of Isha - December 1, 2006 09:36 AM (GMT)
Oh, you can spell it with a 'v'... just be aware that such a spelling is technically incorrect when discussing Warhammer dwarfs. Personal preference is okay and all, but the correct, canonical spelling is undoubtedly 'dwarfs' and this cannot be questioned.
Altithir - December 1, 2006 01:16 PM (GMT)
Well the original meaning of dwarfs refers to short human beings which are disproportionate to other humans beings. I don't know however why the plural of this has never been dwarves, which seems to make more sense. Maybe a plural term has never had much thought put into it because dwarfs are hard to come by in groups (unless you want to hire some for a party).
EDIT- also, elfs refers to
|A small, often mischievous creature considered to have magical powers.|
However since Tolkien's creation of "Elves", this appears to have been ammended.
Caern - December 6, 2006 03:20 PM (GMT)
To expand on what Altathir said, it would stand to reason that one of Tolkien's ideas behind using the V is to differentiate Dwarfs (short humans) with an entirely new fantasy race that has nothing to do with the short human, the Dwarf, plural Dwarves (like Wolves).
Schmeag - December 6, 2006 08:52 PM (GMT)
It seems that GW has not seen the need to differentiate between the two.
Knight of Isha - December 7, 2006 06:13 AM (GMT)
He said that, Caern. Remember that quote? -
|It is to mark this that I have ventured to use the form dwarves, and remove them perhaps, from the sillier tales of these latter days.|
He used the 'v' because he wanted to remove the word from its connotations at the time - that wasn't dwarfism he was talking about, but the popular image of a short, jolly little kobold or gnome type of creature. He ran into the exact same problem with elves, and used the 'v' to show that he was not talking about little fairies.
So, not only does it stand to reason that he wanted to differentiate his dwarves from other meanings of the word, he expressly stated it himself.
Of course, that need is not as present in today's world, and as Schmeag notes, GW hasn't seen it. Tolkien was so successful that the word 'dwarf' is often immediately assumed to mean a short, squat D&D Scottish bearded miner.
So GW has chosen to spell it with an 'f'. Which is their prerogative, and thus absolute truth regarding their products.