A "Lucifer Rising" Question, Sam's role

I really need help with this one. I must be missing something very obvious and I feel like an idiot, but here it goes LOL.

Okay...so...let me get this straight, the YED needed a special child to kill the final seal, Lillith, in order to release Lucifer. And Lillith almost backed out, but in the end she put on her sacrifical dress to get ready for the big moment, and she goaded Sam into killing her... What I don't understand is why they needed a special child at all? If Ruby was in on the plan the whole time; at one time she had the demon killing knife, which I understand had the same impact as The Colt? That it actually killed demons, not just sent them back.

So my confusion is...why did Ruby need Sam at all; she could have just sacrificed Lillith with the knife to open the seal? She didn't really need to reveal herself to Sam and Dean at all...and wouldn't have then lost the knife to them.

Please tell me what I'm not getting?!

And...do you think there's was more to the YED's plan for Sammy than that?

Maybe if Ruby had killed Lilith the ground wouldn't have opened up like it did when Sam killed her. Lucifer specifically told the YED he needed to find a special child. So I'm guessing if Ruby tried to gank Lilith with her knife the ground would not have opened up like it did when Sam killed her.

I always got the feeling that the YED wanted Sam to lead an army of demons.

Lilith was once a human who was made a demon and I think she needed to be killed by someone like her, which is Sam. He is a human but filled with demon blood and his eyes went black, so no one is sure if he's part demon or not right now.

As for the YED's plans, I think Sam fulfilled his destiny and is no longer needed. Lucifer will probably still go after though either to recruit him or to screw with Dean's head, since Dean is destined to be Lucifer's downfall.

Faline, I think it's difficult to say... Ruby gave us one version of a seal, and Castiel gave us a very abbreviated version of it, but it could be that the full text of the seal says that a human has to do the job... or like justannanow said, that it has to be someone like Lillith, a human who's become a demon. I don't think Sam's eyes went black in that moment for nothing.

As for Sam's destiny, I think it's fulfilled.

I think like others here have said, it had to be a human corrupted or changed to open the last seal. If Sam hadnt killed Lillith, I think the demons would have been SOL.

But in Sam's destinty, I doubt that its over. Or at the very least his part to play in the defeating of Lucifer isnt over.

I know that Sam will play some part in defeating Lucifer, but I don't think it's his destiny to do so. It will simply be a matter of him wanting to.

So Sam is a free agent. He's no longer destiny's toy. I like that. But I hope he will still have a vital role to play regarding Lucifer.

You can't have Dean fighting Lucifer without Sam by his side. I would be pissed if Kripke did something like that. And I don't think he will. So Sam will have a major role in defeating Lucifer but it will be only his choice to do so.

What I am wondering is Is Sam as powerful as lucifer? I mean he ganked Lilith and Alistair which it seemed like none of the angels could do. Castiel got whipped by Alistair. So right there we know Sam can be more powerful than angels and Lucifer is an angel so...? Does he still retain his powers, was it just the demon blood. Are there still demons out there loyal to Sam that maybe don't believe in Lucifer? Ohh the suspense is killing me.

I doubt Sam is stronger than Lucifer, but rather that he may be strong enough to figth and hurt Lucifer if he can figure out how to use his powers against angels.
As I understand it, Ruby said that the blood was his dumbo's feather and Sam could use his powers the whole time.

As for demons loyal to Sam, IDK. I would say not but its unclear.

This post has been edited by seroes on Aug 31 2009, 10:21 PM

I think most of you are probably right. Lilith was the first demon and as Ruby was describing her, she was twisted into becoming one and stuff. Kind of the same way that Sam was twisted into becoming what he is. If Ruby could have just killed her with the knife, that would be too simple and they would have tried that a long time ago.

I also think that if Sam's destiny was really over, or his plans as Azazel calls it, then Ruby would have just killed him once the job was done, but she seemed to actually be all touchy feely with him like he was awesome.

Plus, I really find it hard to believe that Dean was the first righteous man in hell EVER to torture someone? That seems kind of unlikely to me so I wonder if after time if a seal is broken that it can like be put back together? Especially if the other seals don't break after that one because they don't have the means necessary to destroy the next ones.

Or perhaps it just means that without Lilith out of the pit, the first seal couldn't be broken to begin with because they needed her? I just know some stuff doesn't add up.

I don't think Sam's destiny is over, I think it is ending this season though (I'm assuming there will be more seasons). Essentially he is the Anti-Christ and I'm thinking Lucifer still wants him, I mean Sam is still one powerful mofo.

Dean probably wasn't the first righteous man in hell, but the whole breaking of the seals thing would be moot if Lilith wasn't out of hell. So I think he was just the first righteous soul in hell after the devil's gate was opened and Lilith got out, and I'm going to assume that it all the seals have to be broken in the course of a year. That is based on nothing, just pulled it out of thin air to make myself feel better.

I think it had to be Sam who had to release him, after all he is Lucifer's true vessel so I guess it was important for him to do it

Maybe she couldn't self-terminate?

The best part of this ep is Ruby's death: I hated her almost from the 1st time she arrives but, I'm sorry (for Jared, ah ah) to say that, especially in this series when the actress changed. Well, that means that Genevieve is a good actress if the target was to make the fans hate her.
Finally, Cass did the right thing, or better, he thinks with his head choosing to help Dean.
Sam fans don't shoot me, please, but I admit that I was very angry with him: he preferred to listen to Ruby instead of Dean and killed Lillith! He hasn't the right to ask Dean's forgiveness! In that moment, I hated him.
Now I'll have to wait until november, about, to have S5 dvd and see how the story goes on...