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Title: Mommy Dearest Issues?


chainmefree - July 17, 2011 11:02 PM (GMT)
OK guys who do you think has the bigger issues about losing Mary... Dean or Sam?:cry

I think its Dean simply because he never fully forgave his dad or Sam for putting her in that place :jedi and both times hes gone back in the past he has tried to stop her from going into Sammy's room on that night? your views?

Raven524 - July 18, 2011 11:04 PM (GMT)
Hmmmm...well to be honest, I think Dean remembers more because he lived with Mary for four years and was close to her. Sam though also loves his mother, but more for who she was I think, if that makes sense. He has no actual memory of her, but he knows she sacrificed her life trying to save him.

I think Dean tries to stop her from going into Sam's room, not because he blames either Sam or John for what happened, but because he wanted his mother to live. The truth is Family is important to both boys and I think that if given the choice, both would want their mother and father alive.

So I have to disagree with your view that Dean held Sam or John responsible for what happened to his mother--he knows who was responsible, the YED and he killed the demon. For him that was the end of it.


charmed1of2 - July 19, 2011 02:08 PM (GMT)
Yeah, I agree with Raven.

I remember when both boys went back in time to stop Anna from killing Mary. Sam came out and told her to leave John so in the end both of them wouldn't have even been born, which Dean agreed with.


So to me that showed both of them loved her enough to give up their own lives to save hers.

That episode was really sad in parts because really that was the first time Sam got to interact with his mom, and it still hurt Dean knowing they couldn't change what would happen after she told them she was already pregnant with him and she wasn't leaving John :cry

So in my mind both times it was Mary's choice and they couldn't change destiny like Cas had informed them anyways but that's how I've always viewed it :shrug

bjxmas - July 19, 2011 02:44 PM (GMT)
I don't think Dean has ever blamed John or Sam for what happened to his mom. He blames YED and circumstances beyond their control. Both his time travel attempts to save his mom and change the future only added to his pain of the inevitability of her death.

Dean would adamantly argue with Sam that this wasn't his fault, that Sam was blameless in Mom's death and I think Dean fully feels that. He could never blame his brother. Sam was a baby, totally the victim here, just like Mom and Dean and John.

Sadly, if he were to blame a family member...then it would have to be Mary. She made the deal, she danced with the devil. But she had no choice, if she hadn't agreed to the deal, John would be dead and neither boy would have been conceived and born. It was fate or destiny and couldn't be changed.

As to which boy misses or feels her loss more? Like John's love and their daddy issues, they are both significant but simply different. Is it better to have known great love and comfort and lose it...or to never feel a mother's arms around you, to never hear those soft words of love and comfort?

I'm a Dean girl and I've always been drawn to Dean's pain. He had a glorious life with loving parents and a baby brother he adored. Everything was perfect until that horrible night and then he lost so much. Dean remembers what it was like before, remembers how scared and lost he was after, the terror of knowing his mom was gone, the fear of what was coming next, the agony of seeing his dad fall apart and not having either parent in place to protect and love him.

He has always felt her loss. He's always had that warm and soft remembrance of what was ripped out of his life. I can't imagine anything worse for a sensitive, sweet child like he was back in the beginning. It is why family is most important to him, it is what he most desires...to feel like he did as a kid before his world exploded all around him.

Now, Sam...he had no memory of Mom. I'm sure as a baby he missed her, but he had no conscious imprint to put a name to it. I'm sure somewhere he felt the loss as a child, the wistful hope that he could have normal and be like all the other kids.

Just like Dean couldn't feel what it would be like to lose your girlfriend, Sam couldn't feel what Dean felt at losing Mom. It was more abstract and unknown. They could both empathize and care about the loss, but going through it yourself is different.

For Sam, I think he felt the loss once he went back in time. Once he saw her, talked to her, came to know her. Then the loss was even greater, more pronounced and real. Then he fully felt the loss of what might have been, what he could have had.

So both boys have Mommy Issues, just like they have Daddy Issues. They have lived tragic and painful lives. I love that they carry on so beautifully, putting aside their own pain to help others, clinging to each other as the one steady presence in their lives, the one certainty they can hold on to, that they have their brother beside them in the fight and that both love the other above all else. :wub:

B.J.

:hug

Celticwench - July 19, 2011 06:39 PM (GMT)
As always,BJ, you put that beautifully :)

chainmefree - July 19, 2011 10:47 PM (GMT)
ok Guys that brings up a different topic all together... the parent issue I would believe that Daddy issues really are worse with Dean

but Raven I never really thought of it that way!

Amyj - July 20, 2011 12:40 AM (GMT)
Actually i think Dean does on a subconcious level blame Sam just a little for Marys death. And we have a little canon to back that up. The Japanese game show question that Dean got right. "Would your parents still be alive if Sam was never born."

I wish the writers had explored that a little more. Def would have made for fascinating conflict for Dean. Loving sam as much as he does but a part - whoever irrational - blames him for Mary and Johns death.

amy

Amyj - July 20, 2011 12:44 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (chainmefree @ Jul 19 2011, 10:47 PM)
ok Guys that brings up a different topic all together... the parent issue I would believe that Daddy issues really are worse with Dean

but Raven I never really thought of it that way!

Sell, sure because Dean clings to his issues as if it was a bacon cheeseburger.

amy

Irishgirl - July 20, 2011 12:52 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Amyj @ Jul 19 2011, 08:40 PM)
Actually i think Dean does on a subconcious level blame Sam just a little for Marys death. And we have a little canon to back that up. The Japanese game show question that Dean got right. "Would your parents still be alive if Sam was never born."

But Dean had no clue what the host said. He only answered to save himself from getting hit in the nuts.

I agree w/Raven. I don't think Dean blames Sam for May's death. He said as much in Salvation.

Sam: So, basically, this demon is going after these kids for some reason, same way it came for me? So, Momís death, Jessica Ė itís all cause of me?

Dean: We donít know that, Sam.

Sam (angry): Oh really, cause Iíd say weíre pretty damn sure, Dean!

Dean: For the last time, what happened to them is not your fault.

chainmefree - July 20, 2011 12:56 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Amyj @ Jul 19 2011, 04:44 PM)
QUOTE (chainmefree @ Jul 19 2011, 10:47 PM)
ok Guys that brings up a different topic all together... the parent issue I would believe that Daddy issues really are worse with Dean

but Raven I never really thought of it that way!

Sell, sure because Dean clings to his issues as if it was a bacon cheeseburger.

amy

hahahahaha :hi5 Amy

and that is true that he did get asked that question and he did answer yes

chainmefree - July 20, 2011 12:59 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Irishgirl @ Jul 19 2011, 04:52 PM)
But Dean had no clue what the host said. He only answered to save himself from getting hit in the nuts.

I agree w/Raven. I don't think Dean blames Sam for May's death. He said as much in Salvation.

Sam: So, basically, this demon is going after these kids for some reason, same way it came for me? So, Momís death, Jessica Ė itís all cause of me?

Dean: We donít know that, Sam.

Sam (angry): Oh really, cause Iíd say weíre pretty damn sure, Dean!

Dean: For the last time, what happened to them is not your fault.

but Irishgirl you have to take into consideration that Every time the Issue about Mary and John comes up Dean get Angry and its not just towards TYD it towards the other thing that went on too! And part of that was Sam!

Irishgirl - July 20, 2011 01:12 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (chainmefree @ Jul 19 2011, 08:59 PM)
QUOTE (Irishgirl @ Jul 19 2011, 04:52 PM)
But Dean had no clue what the host said.  He only answered to save himself from getting hit in the nuts.

I agree w/Raven.  I don't think Dean blames Sam for May's death.  He said as much in Salvation.

Sam: So, basically, this demon is going after these kids for some reason, same way it came for me? So, Momís death, Jessica Ė itís all cause of me?

Dean: We donít know that, Sam.

Sam (angry): Oh really, cause Iíd say weíre pretty damn sure, Dean!

Dean: For the last time, what happened to them is not your fault.

but Irishgirl you have to take into consideration that Every time the Issue about Mary and John comes up Dean get Angry and its not just towards TYD it towards the other thing that went on too! And part of that was Sam!

But Dean knows that Sam was just a baby and that Sam didn't ask for what happened. Mary was the one to make the deal with the YED. I don't think that Dean would hold what happened when Sam was a baby against him. Dean was angry that Sam kept having the YED's blood in him a secret, but I don't think that Dean blames Sam for actually having the YED's blood in him. That was beyond his control and I think Dean's knows that.

chainmefree - July 20, 2011 01:14 AM (GMT)
Kinda off topic but I started a new game guys please try it?

chainmefree - July 20, 2011 01:16 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Irishgirl @ Jul 19 2011, 05:12 PM)
But Dean knows that Sam was just a baby and that Sam didn't ask for what happened. Mary was the one to make the deal with the YED. I don't think that Dean would hold what happened when Sam was a baby against him. Dean was angry that Sam kept having the YED's blood in him a secret, but I don't think that Dean blames Sam for actually having the YED's blood in him. That was beyond his control and I think Dean's knows that.

true but i think there is still resentment there

bjxmas - July 20, 2011 01:30 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Amyj @ Jul 20 2011, 12:40 AM)
Actually i think Dean does on a subconcious level blame Sam just a little for Marys death. And we have a little canon to back that up. The Japanese game show question that Dean got right. "Would your parents still be alive if Sam was never born."

I wish the writers had explored that a little more. Def would have made for fascinating conflict for Dean. Loving sam as much as he does but a part - whoever irrational - blames him for Mary and Johns death.

amy

Interesting concept...and yes, it certainly would bring conflict for Dean. He KNOWS it isn't Sam's fault, I firmly believe that...but the little boy who lost all is still there and kids don't think rationally, they feel. And Dean feels...so much that he stuffs it all down and lives in denial.

I don't know whether he blames Sam on some subconscious level or not. I think regardless, the Japanese quiz show question could only have one answer. If not for baby Sammy (who the YED came for that night) then there would have been no reason for Mary to die in that supernatural house fire. That's fact. Besides, we don't know that Dean even understood the question...he simply answered in Japanese (which he does not speak!)

Now, Sam asking the question, searching for more illumination would be very fascinating. Maybe Dean would cop to underlying resentment and oh, what an emotional upheaval that would be for both boys.

As far as Daddy issues. Again, Dean stuffed his down and played the good soldier, perfecting the good, obedient son. I don't think he ever realized a problem, he was so ingrained in holding the family together. It took a very long time for his issues with John to surface.

When they finally did, Dad was gone, Dean was facing Hell and he was scared and angry and resentful. That's a potent combination for Dean Winchester and no, he's never moved past the hurt towards forgiveness and acceptance. That's an area the writers have stalled at...how does Dean see his dad as a human being, noble and courageous and loving of his sons, but also self-obsessed with his vengeance and neglectful of his sons? How does Dean reconcile the two Johns, the loving father who sacrificed his very life and soul to save his sons with the distant soldier who commanded them and molded them into a way of life that robs them of so much? John kept them alive, he taught them how to survive, he gave them a valid and noble value system, he made them the men they are and yet he failed them on a basic, emotional level.

Sam fought his dad his entire life. He lived with the feeling of not belonging, of not being accepted, of being an outsider in his own family. He fought for his dad to see him, to understand him and to validate his choices. Instead he felt compared to his brother, the lesser of the Winchesters, the outcast. I think of both boys, Sam had the closest thing to closure when he returned to the past and talked with young John. He finally saw his father for the man he once was, the loving husband and future father who was appalled that a man would do what he himself ultimately did to his sons. Sam saw him before he was broken, before he was filled with hate for the evil that destroyed his life. Before he lost that part of himself that was compassionate and caring enough to put his sons first.

Sam understood. That scene in DMB where John opened up to him was beautiful, a glimpse of his love and his hopes for his sons. He never wanted this for them, but he felt compelled to keep them safe, to train them in this war that was coming...

I think both brothers are stuck where they are in their relationship with Dad. Sam could definitely benefit from more time to sort things out, but he's on the path, he went thru the same thing with Jessica that John did with Mary. They have that common bond and that common goal, vengeance and justice. In TSRTS he got the chance to tell his dad that he understood, that he forgives him and that he accepts his life as a hunter.

Dean is really stuck, back in denial and blocked from resolving the wounds John left. So from my POV, Dean needs him back at some point, to air their differences and truly uncover what he believes. I don't think Dean knows who he is or what he believes aside from the role he played to please Dad. He never allowed himself the freedom to choose as a young man, he became who his dad needed, who he thought he should be.

I think Show has been a little heavy-handed with Dean's response to the memory of Dad. It allowed him to bond and commiserate with Castiel, but it was one-sided, forgetting how close Dean was with his dad, how much he loved and respected the man. That love and respect isn't gone, it's hidden behind the resentment and the letdown he now feels when he thinks of Dad.

Throw in Adam and the resentment stands out, Dean most upset while Sam was understanding and more forgiving. To me that shows that Sam has resolved more concerning Dad and that Dean is still struggling, still torn between what he believed as a child and what he's acknowledged as a problem as an adult.

If anyone is interested in more, more of my thoughts and feelings on the subject are in my Jump the Shark tag Fortunate Son. I found the episode really illuminating concerning how the brothers felt about their dad and the very idea that he found comfort with another woman and produced another son. A son that was allowed to grow up normal. Dean's anger and Sam's understanding were very fascinating to me and like most of my tags, I simply needed to explore their feelings in greater depth.

Fortunate Son

I find the very differences of the brothers, both sharing this experience of growing up on the road and becoming hunters, apart from society, intriguing. I think both have issues, both have strengths and soft spots. They see things from different perspectives, experience different hurts and yet they are so close and compatible as brothers, truly the only ones who have been there thru it all and who can share this journey.

I always want to know more, and I always ultimately want to see them coming together and caring. It is the emotional underpinnings of these heroic men that grabs us. :wub:

B.J.

:hug

Jimmy23 - July 20, 2011 03:54 AM (GMT)
I think that Sam and Dean have very different perspectives when it comes to their parents that it would be difficult to say which one has the bigger parents issues. I agree with Raven and part of what BJ said.

In my opinion, Dean never truly blamed Sam for Mary's death, but a part of him did blame John. In the episode of "Dream a little Dream of Me," Dean admitted that his dad didn't keep his mother safe and let her die (3x10). I think a part of Dean blamed John because John was a good father and Dean's hero when Mary was alive, but did not save her that night. We know that John was a great hunter, but he also saved a lot of lives. So, maybe in Dean's mind he thinks that if John was able to save everyone else then why not her? I don't think it was something on the surface. It was buried deep.

However, I don't think Dean ever blamed Sam. Perhaps, there were the sick moments where the thought crossed Dean's mind. Like it's has been said, in the episode of "Changing Channels" when the Japanese game show host asked Dean the question of whether or not his parents would still be alive if Sam had never been born and his answer was "yes" (5x08). (Which always makes me wonder if Dean does wish that Sam hadn't been born so his parents would still be around.) While I doubt Dean's feeling towards Sam, I do think that those moments when Dean does find himself blaming Sam or wishing Sam wasn't around are always met with extreme guilt and nausea. We all have those horrible moments when thoughts and feelings we absolutely hate and wish never existed wander into our heads. Outside those random thoughts, I don't think Dean has really truly blamed Sam. As for what Yellow eyes did to Sam, I don't think Dean blamed Sam or Mary, but did get beyond upset and scared the moment Sam started using his abilities. He was angry at Sam because of his concern and fears of what could happen with the added worry of Sam willing to hurt himself to use his abilities. Its because of that night that Dean holding on to Sam so closely.

The way I always pictured the Winchester family before the fire was that John worked long hours at the garage in order to allow Mary to stay home full time with the boys. It probably put strain on John and Mary's marriage and made Dean much closer and attach to Mary. Then once the fire happened and Mary's death, Dean no longer wanted to talk about Mary. When Dean was younger, he yelled at Sam for simply mentioning her (3x08). Dean still is very sensitive towards anything including Sam talking about their mother (1x01, 1x09, 1x22, 5x16). Each time Samuel brought up Mary, Dean was always extremely uncomfortable (6x01, 6x02, 6x10). I mean, the first really memorable moment when Dean openly tells Sam something about what their mother would think didn't happen until the second season in "Houses of the Holy." And next times were 4x04 and 6x16. Dean still feels the loss of Mary and I don't think he has ever fully gotten over that loss.

Sam, on the other hand, has never known the love of a mother. He (probably) hadn't of heard the words "I love you" until Jess. (John and Dean aren't really the touch feely type guys.) Sam grew up in a harsh and complex environment with a distant father who nothing he did was ever good enough and a perfect son brother who never could stand up for himself (1x08, 1x11). With the addition problem of having to be an adult when it was convenient for John to be away then be a child when it was more convenient for John to keep them in the dark.

I think Sam grew up angry at the fact he didn't have a mother and it wasn't until Jessica's death before he ever understood the loss of Mary. Sam was and is very curious about his mother, but grew up in an environment where it wasn't really allowed to talk about her without someone getting angry which probably made Sam very angry towards John and Dean. But I also think that Sam might have use the notation that Mary wouldn't have wanted this for her family as a way to push John's buttons. Sometimes bad attention is better than no attention for some people. I think because Sam never had the chance to know his mother a part of him was never able to move past the anger part of grief until after Jessica's and John's deaths. And then another part of him finds comfort and strength because of Mary (2x04, 4x21).

However, unlike Dean, Sam doesn't know what family really is or what it truly means. You can see it in certain episodes like everything he talks to Adam, his arguments are weak and don't really get through to Adam (4x19, 5x18). Or Robo-Sam who was truly confused about why you couldn't trust "family" (6x07).

Dean has a definition and an idea of what family is. Yet, Sam doesn't. Dean has positives towards family. But if you were to strip everything and put it in simple cruel terms Sam's mother sold him to a demon, Sam's father's dying wish was for him to die, Sam's brother had thought of killing him before, Sam's grandfather has used him as a perfect soldier and was ready to feed him to ghouls, and Sam's surrogate father didn't even notice he was missing a soul for a whole year and then wanted to tell Sam all about the horrible thing he did while he was soulless to make himself feel better. So, while Dean takes home the award for the most mommy and daddy issues, Sam takes home the awards for guy who has no clue about family and who NOT to ask for advice about families. I don't think Sam could really define what family mean and thinks of Dean as someone who is beyond the evils of family.


Kyle - July 20, 2011 04:12 AM (GMT)
As a child Dean may have blamed Daddy for not saving Mommy but I can't see him blaming baby Sammy. After they found out the YED came for Sam and Mary interupted him, I still don't see Dean blaming Sam. As for blaming John, in Dean's deepest, darkest and still kid like recessess he may have still blamed him but not in his adult mind. If anything, once he knew it'd been Mary who'd made the deal that let the YED into the house, he might've resented her for a bit cause she's the one who did this to their family, to Dean's little brother.

Sam has more Dad issues than Mom issues. He could be angry with her for dying and since she's the one who made the deal that ultimately led to her death, he could blame her for that too. Yet since Sam never had memories of a Mom his anger issues, if he had any, would be aimed more at the concept of Mommydom.

markie - July 20, 2011 03:32 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Jimmy23 @ Jul 20 2011, 03:54 AM)
I think that Sam and Dean have very different perspectives when it comes to their parents that it would be difficult to say which one has the bigger parents issues. I agree with Raven and part of what BJ said.

In my opinion, Dean never truly blamed Sam for Mary's death, but a part of him did blame John. In the episode of "Dream a little Dream of Me," Dean admitted that his dad didn't keep his mother safe and let her die (3x10). I think a part of Dean blamed John because John was a good father and Dean's hero when Mary was alive, but did not save her that night. We know that John was a great hunter, but he also saved a lot of lives. So, maybe in Dean's mind he thinks that if John was able to save everyone else then why not her? I don't think it was something on the surface. It was buried deep.

However, I don't think Dean ever blamed Sam. Perhaps, there were the sick moments where the thought crossed Dean's mind. Like it's has been said, in the episode of "Changing Channels" when the Japanese game show host asked Dean the question of whether or not his parents would still be alive if Sam had never been born and his answer was "yes" (5x08). (Which always makes me wonder if Dean does wish that Sam hadn't been born so his parents would still be around.) While I doubt Dean's feeling towards Sam, I do think that those moments when Dean does find himself blaming Sam or wishing Sam wasn't around are always met with extreme guilt and nausea. We all have those horrible moments when thoughts and feelings we absolutely hate and wish never existed wander into our heads. Outside those random thoughts, I don't think Dean has really truly blamed Sam. As for what Yellow eyes did to Sam, I don't think Dean blamed Sam or Mary, but did get beyond upset and scared the moment Sam started using his abilities. He was angry at Sam because of his concern and fears of what could happen with the added worry of Sam willing to hurt himself to use his abilities. Its because of that night that Dean holding on to Sam so closely.

The way I always pictured the Winchester family before the fire was that John worked long hours at the garage in order to allow Mary to stay home full time with the boys. It probably put strain on John and Mary's marriage and made Dean much closer and attach to Mary. Then once the fire happened and Mary's death, Dean no longer wanted to talk about Mary. When Dean was younger, he yelled at Sam for simply mentioning her (3x08). Dean still is very sensitive towards anything including Sam talking about their mother (1x01, 1x09, 1x22, 5x16). Each time Samuel brought up Mary, Dean was always extremely uncomfortable (6x01, 6x02, 6x10). I mean, the first really memorable moment when Dean openly tells Sam something about what their mother would think didn't happen until the second season in "Houses of the Holy." And next times were 4x04 and 6x16. Dean still feels the loss of Mary and I don't think he has ever fully gotten over that loss.

Sam, on the other hand, has never known the love of a mother. He (probably) hadn't of heard the words "I love you" until Jess. (John and Dean aren't really the touch feely type guys.) Sam grew up in a harsh and complex environment with a distant father who nothing he did was ever good enough and a perfect son brother who never could stand up for himself (1x08, 1x11). With the addition problem of having to be an adult when it was convenient for John to be away then be a child when it was more convenient for John to keep them in the dark.

I think Sam grew up angry at the fact he didn't have a mother and it wasn't until Jessica's death before he ever understood the loss of Mary. Sam was and is very curious about his mother, but grew up in an environment where it wasn't really allowed to talk about her without someone getting angry which probably made Sam very angry towards John and Dean. But I also think that Sam might have use the notation that Mary wouldn't have wanted this for her family as a way to push John's buttons. Sometimes bad attention is better than no attention for some people. I think because Sam never had the chance to know his mother a part of him was never able to move past the anger part of grief until after Jessica's and John's deaths. And then another part of him finds comfort and strength because of Mary (2x04, 4x21).

However, unlike Dean, Sam doesn't know what family really is or what it truly means. You can see it in certain episodes like everything he talks to Adam, his arguments are weak and don't really get through to Adam (4x19, 5x18). Or Robo-Sam who was truly confused about why you couldn't trust "family" (6x07).

Dean has a definition and an idea of what family is. Yet, Sam doesn't. Dean has positives towards family. But if you were to strip everything and put it in simple cruel terms Sam's mother sold him to a demon, Sam's father's dying wish was for him to die, Sam's brother had thought of killing him before, Sam's grandfather has used him as a perfect soldier and was ready to feed him to ghouls, and Sam's surrogate father didn't even notice he was missing a soul for a whole year and then wanted to tell Sam all about the horrible thing he did while he was soulless to make himself feel better. So, while Dean takes home the award for the most mommy and daddy issues, Sam takes home the awards for guy who has no clue about family and who NOT to ask for advice about families. I don't think Sam could really define what family mean and thinks of Dean as someone who is beyond the evils of family.

I agree with this nicely said :) ..

But again it highlights a problem ( and this will sound like a broken record) the lack of exploration where Sam and family are concerned and a lack of validation of why and how he feels..

sammycat - July 20, 2011 05:40 PM (GMT)
I think the problem comes with the show identifying Dean as the "family brother" and thus giving all family moments and bonding scenes to Dean, and almost none to Sam. Ultimately, this is ridiculous on a show about two brothers from the same family who grew up together the way that they did. In order for Dean to bond with Castiel, the show's writers have to completely ignore the fact that John was Sam's dad, too. Or even worse, have Dean forget this. This is why I've come to believe that Dean is obsessed with the concept of family, but that doesn't necessarily equate to love of his family or love of family in general. I think he is obsessed by the *idea* of family, and maybe the feeling he got from it when he was a young child and his family was whole. He wants to decide what and who family is, but won't accept the different concepts and feelings of others about this, such as Sam's. This was shown in DSOTM in rather tragic detail. I found Dean so unacceptable in that episode, it is not funny, and I'm sure I wasn't supposed to see it that negatively. But I did. It was from Dean's POV, so I'm sure I was supposed to take Dean's "side" in that episode. Instead, it is the one episode of SPN that makes me madder at Dean than any other.



I think both Sam and Dean have suffered the loss of their parents in different ways. Dean experienced loss of family wholeness, mother comforts, and feelings of safety and well being. Sam experienced the loss of never knowing this feeling at all. So, Dean suffers from the Pain of Loss while Sam suffers from the Pain of Absence. I think it's a toss up for each of them, but on the show, Dean's feelings have been given more attention, to the point where Sam's have often been ignored outright, or derided outright. This is the crux that often makes me despair about SPN being truly about Family at all, in a real sense, not in a lip service way. SPN pays a lot of lip service to the *word* family, but what does it really mean on this show? I am often at a loss as to how I am suppose to take some things on SPN because of this.



In the end, saying one brother suffered the most for this, that, or the other is just reducing their pain down to a contest, and it's probably better not to look at the show that narrowly. So, for me, Dean suffered LOSS. And for me, Sam suffered ABSENCE. Dean misses his mother cutting the crusts off his bread for his sandwiches. Sam never got sandwiches from his mother at all.


And I think with Daddy issues, well, Dean got the extra cookies from Dad, but he may have forgotten his own wants and needs in the process. While Sam got attention from Dad outside of hunting, but it came from disappointing John and being yelled at constantly. Also, a lot of Dean's issues with John come from his OWN hero worship of the man - viewing him as this super hero out fighting monsters. When Dean feels less than a super hero, he feels like he's disappointed John, but really John didn't have much to do with Dean viewing him in such impossibly big terms. Dean is very big on images, and his own self-image is very important to him, so he created an image of John in his mind that neither man could probably live up to forever. Maybe we can't blame Dean for this defense mechanism, but we can't blame John either. We can blame John for not being there, and for stupid stuff like leaving his kids alone when he's hunting a monster that sucks out the life forces of children (talk about not braining that day, oy), or hunting so much that he neglected the emotional welfare of his children. But the hero worship thing, that was not an issue created by John.


And if we look at Sam, he had the opposite problem to Dean's. Whereas Dean hero-worshipped John, Sam couldn't see the good in what they were doing, what John was doing, or why they were doing it, for a long time. I think Sam understood that John was avoiding them while he was on hunting jobs - John simply wasn't there while Dean was. I think Sam saw this very simply, and he longed for the kinds of families he saw elsewhere. Where everyone was together, and they had regular holidays together, and they did regular family things together. I also think Sam is a worst case scenario thinker, and as soon as he found out John hunted monsters, he KNEW that John could die on the job, and never come back to them some day. Dean's response to this possibility was to make John into an indestructible super hero, while Sam's response was to think, oh crap, we're all doomed and we're all gonna die some day and Dad will die first. Dean is still struggling with the loss of his view of John as this super hero. While Sam has had to absorb the impact of his guilt over not understanding and accepting John as their father while he was alive. Sam has had to live with all the anger he put on John while he was growing up. If you look at this set up, Dean is mad at John, but Sam is mad at himself for his views of John. Dean now looks back in anger, and Sam in regret. Sam spent most of his life being angry with John, but now he's more angry with himself. Dean's anger towards himself is now turned against John (Dean created Super Hero John in his own mind is what I'm saying), while Sam's anger towards John is now turned towards himself for not understanding where John was coming from. I'm not sure how healthy either scenario is for each brother. They both hurt because of it.





Jamieo_0 - July 20, 2011 06:05 PM (GMT)
Not for nothing guys, but lets not turn this into another "We never see Sam's feeling while we see Dean's all the time" thread.

That's really a subjective, circular argument that can't honestly be substantiated on either side. - you either see that, or you don't.


Amyj - July 20, 2011 09:25 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Irishgirl @ Jul 20 2011, 01:12 AM)
QUOTE (chainmefree @ Jul 19 2011, 08:59 PM)
QUOTE (Irishgirl @ Jul 19 2011, 04:52 PM)
But Dean had no clue what the host said.† He only answered to save himself from getting hit in the nuts.

I agree w/Raven.† I don't think Dean blames Sam for May's death.† He said as much in Salvation.

Sam: So, basically, this demon is going after these kids for some reason, same way it came for me? So, Momís death, Jessica Ė itís all cause of me?

Dean: We donít know that, Sam.

Sam (angry): Oh really, cause Iíd say weíre pretty damn sure, Dean!

Dean: For the last time, what happened to them is not your fault.

but Irishgirl you have to take into consideration that Every time the Issue about Mary and John comes up Dean get Angry and its not just towards TYD it towards the other thing that went on too! And part of that was Sam!

But Dean knows that Sam was just a baby and that Sam didn't ask for what happened. Mary was the one to make the deal with the YED. I don't think that Dean would hold what happened when Sam was a baby against him. Dean was angry that Sam kept having the YED's blood in him a secret, but I don't think that Dean blames Sam for actually having the YED's blood in him. That was beyond his control and I think Dean's knows that.

But see? I think this is why i think it would be a fascinating layer to dean. I mean....i still see that 4 yr old boy in Dean and while adult Dean gets it. YED killed Mary and later John...there is that traumitised 4 yr old who doesn't think logically or rationally. He only knows his mommy n daddy are dead and that piece of Dean thats buried deep inside thinks that: that they would be alive if only Sam hadn't been born.

And I can see Dean feeling guilty for even having that thought/feeling. I could see a demon using that to mess with the brothers. And I can see Sam understanding cause hell, he never had what dean had and he had those thoughts.

It'd make a great brother bonding scene. And then bobby could call them idjits.

Or Sam could time travel to the night before Azazel came to him planning to kill his 6 mo old self (asphisiation). Mary would think it was Azazel collecting his pt pf the deal...thinking a demon killed her baby....it would catapult her and John into hunting....Dean would still be a hunter but he would have his parents...both parents...and it would still be the family business.

amy


chainmefree - July 31, 2011 11:06 AM (GMT)
Wow Amy that is something I never really put any thought into good pov




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