The Anniversary of Al's Birthday, Please Remember His Wife Debbie

Hi, Everyone...

Today is the anniversary of Al's birthday. I'm not sure if he would've been 94 or 95 years old today, but I do know I miss him, his wisdom and humor and kindness. The emotion I experience most when I think of Albert Ellis is gratitude. My life would have been much different (and not for the better) if I had not run across him when I was 19 years old psychology student. That was long ago but the memory is fresh. It is an honor to continue living REBT and teaching it to others.

Please take some time when you read this to remember Debbie Joffe-Ellis, Al's wife and, in his final days, his patient and loving caregiver.

Al found the true love of his life when he was in his late 80s. I know two other elders who experienced the same thing -- true love at an advanced age -- so I know this is not rare. But it is a shock to the person and to the friends and family who have preconceived iBs about proper behavior for elders.

My own mother-in-law married a man who was 94 years old and they had 9 wonderful years together, much to the chagrin and surprise of some family members who thought both the bride and groom were too old for such nonsense. And even more surprisingly, she passed away first. I am constantly inspired by the human capacity to love against all odds.

You can send a note of support and remembrance to Debbie at:

debbiejoffeellis (at) gmail (dot) com

Replace (at) with @ and (dot) with . and you have her address, but the bots do not.

Hope you are all well and living REBT in your daily lives.

Gayle

I remember Al was asked what he most wanted for the future, and instead of moneatry gains ( or repartations) or betterment of his own present situation at Institute, he said what he wanted was for his followers ( that doesn't seem to be the right word, but it shall suffice. I think a better description would be " those that understand the foundations of REBT), was for them to practice the principles of REBT and teach them to their friends and associates.

I have been trying as best I can to act in accordance with Al's wishes. I

recently have been in contact with an old friend from my teen years, and I have beeen trying to give her some instruction in the ABCs of REBT, and exposure to the " New Guide To Rational Living".

I also try my best to apply the REBT insights to deal with unfortunate incidents in my own life, whether it be unfair hatred from people I had cared about, ostracization and isolation as a form of "Punishment" or social exclusion. and the "pain" of having a helpful friendly, caring disposition bering misinterpreted as something selfish or even" disturbed" - once it even went so far as I got "labelled" as having something called " Histrionic Personality Disorder" when I thought I was just a nice, caring, helpful person. That hurt, but Dr. Ellis in his very generous and humanitarian way gave us the tools to cope, showed us how we CREATE our own "hurt", and in his last years, through giving those demonstrations next door, taught us all, those of us who could see it, at least, the greatest lessons ever in dealing with adversity. And, lets face it, our adversities were not nearly as great as his, yet he was the one we turned to for comfort and help and humor in those bad times...he didn't look to us but looked within.

Thoreau said something along the lines of how a true philosopher would not even need a suitcase if he had to flee the city in a hurry. He had everything he needed inside of him. That's a paraphrase...It's also Dr. Ellis to a T - at least in my estimation.

Danny Schorr

Gail, Danny and others who almost wrote something on this web site. I have been looking here almost every day to see some new entry,but none are here. Why? Maybe some are getting tired of writing or hopefully they are doing other more important things in a way of letting others know the wisdom we have been made aware of through Albert Ellis. I never have did my very best at doing anything as I figured long ago even if it wasn't impossible it certainly wouldn't be much fun for me. I just turned 74 on January 3rd and recently read an interesting article about loss of memory being related to too much sugar in a part of the brain and now I am thinking I will use less sugar and as well as affecting my memory maybe I will loose the 15 pounds I have been half assed trying to loose for the past year. With the economic problems we now have and with way too many people taking it all too seriously maybe those with REBT wisdom could share more with others so they don't become so depressed. I would like to see some on line counseling using REBT similar to what Adlerians using the ideas of Albert Adler used in the public school gumnasium (on stage) with the public invited to watch the focus family or individual being counseled,(Adlerian Family Counseling). I do hope there are some REBT people around who would consider such a task. It did take Dreikurs and Ellis many, many years to accomplish what they did. The secret to success may be in never giving up. If some have gotten discouraged maybe it would help to rest for a while and then once more reach for the goals they have set up for themselves. Happy New Year and if the going gets a little rough for you just read more REBT until you get a better philosophy of life. Hell we have to have the bad before we can really appreciate the good anyway right? Sincerely Dennis

Hey Dennis,

Thanks for posting- I thought my last reply signalled the end of this messageboard.

I, too, come here a lot hoping to see participation, but I guess most people have, as you said, moved on to other things.

As for me, I am still trying trying trying my best with the REBT...

I have just come back from vacation where I spent some time reading " Growth Through Reason". Dr Ellis is published it in 1971 and I think he was really on top of his game then.
He's becoming remembered, it seems, as the fouled-mouthed old man who said outrageous things, but that was just one aspect of his later years which appeals to the media.
I see a different side of him in the commentary to the transcriptions in the book - just a brilliant clinician,theorist and psychologist.

(Yes, it's a book of REBT transcripts - no wonder it appeals to me so much, right?
:-))

[aside - I've been spending a lot of time reading my own transcript work on the FNWs - glad I did them, and glad that I seemed to have , in hindsight, done a very pretty good job, too :-)]

Anyway, It's easy to read a lot of REBT but not always so easy to apply it and do the homework - hence the reason I keep trying, trying, trying...

Interesting that you mention the current economic crises - I sometimes find the fear and panic about it overwhelming - such as today when I read the latest unemployment statistics in the NYT. It seems people everywhere are gripped by fear and panic and that can possibly be somewhat contageous in itself.

I've wondered if anyone had any experiences to relate regarding REBT to the current crisis we are facing.

It seems the best thing to do in that regard is to really work on awfulizing and catasthphosing, and keep reminding yourself that in this moment, things are OK
( if the are) Tomorrow may be worse - I'll deal with it when it happens. for now let me not make myself overly upset and accept harsh reality.

Ok - that's all for now

Danny

Danny, I have replied twice and had it all gone someplace so now I'll make it brief. I was glad to see your writings. I may have missed them for a few days as I was looking at the last comment name rather than the date. What are FNW"S and maybe if I know that I will know how they relate to your liking transcripts. I get the idea from your writing that you are a pretty tense person at times and I hope you don't get so tense that it takes away from your personal happiness. I say this because if I became very fearful and panicked about the present economic crisis I wouldn't enjoy it very much. Just imagine how much worse things could be and hell you could almost giggle to yourself when you think how good your present situation is, if not let me know and we'll do something about it. As an aid in really trying to write and speak in a way to be more accurate I am mentioning the word everywhere as probably most people in the world don't really know what is going on and really don't much care. Maybe I am nieve in thinking this. If I get too upset about anything I do find it really helps to read and listen to what Ellis has said. I think his writings are too profound to be ignored for long and he did write so much hopefully his wisdom will spread. Thanks to others I am able to listen to, see and read more about Albert Ellis on the internet than I have ever before. Just strongly remember USA and UOA and ULA (unconditional life acceptance) or what ever it is called. Hell if you still have an income or job you are much better off than those who don't. Continue to make yourself happy by what you think and always remember to challenge your irrational ideas is something I think Ellis would have liked to hear us say.

I am tense at times - how one could tell that from my internet posts, I'll be damnned if I know though LOL.

Oh - maybe my comments on the financial meltdown? Yes I do find myself over -worrying about it sometimes, but then I get out pad and paper and do some disputing. I usually find I am demanding certainty rather than preferring it. And aren't we all, collectively, Damning the people like Bernie Madoff and greedy Wall St. people who got us in this mess? (and thus making ourselves angry about it)

I think Dr. Ellis would say we had better damn their behaviors and not them as humans. Not so easy to do when we are on the losing end of the bargain!

The FNWs are transcriptions ofthe Friday Night Workshops done by yours truly of Dr. Ellis' sessions done when he was 'in exile' and had to do them next door to the Institute.

I transcribed around 14 or so of them and they are posted right here on this bb but in a different section. You can take a look at some of them here -

http://z14.invisionfree.com/REBT_CBT_Works...php?showforum=7

I forgot how to make links here, but if you paste that into your browser bar it should get you there.

I find them interesting and very helpful...my point before though was that they are just one aspect of the man - an elder in a public setting doing very brief sessions and being insightful and entertaining. There where other aspects of the man's brilliance that are to be found in the other outlets of his ( his books - some geared to the layperson and some to the professional) that arent so readily apparent in the FNW transcripts that offer a lot of help and hope - whether theraputecally or just as general life philosophy. They all have their facets and taken together they presnt a picture of a man who really practiced what he preached. I witnessed firsthand how a man can be in the midst of very big adversities and still ( really) not let them affect his capacity for humor, joy and happy living.
Quite a thing to aspire to.

But I still have to work very hard to apply them to myself. I guess I was born more predisposed to irrationality than the average person.


Tensely awaiting your reply (LOL)
Danny

Danny, I appreciate thelink I only had to click on and I got theFriday Night Workshop in exile page. Fortunately as I still don't paste or whatever you said. I was shocked to realize I could have jusst clicked on it at the top of this page. Being very ignorant about computer things I really think who ever designs these pages has a lot to make it so simple most people know where things are on the page, I wonder why they don't have a training page for people new to their page can go and learn how things work. I don't think it is very bright to have the most frequently used parts of the page to have entries made in the middle of the page, Anyway thank you ever so much for guiding me to more information about Ellis. I spent the last six hours copying the 49 entries. Re-reading them didn't help though as I found myself getting a little angry about how Ellis was treated. I do like his idea that he didn't hate Hitler yet he would be willing to go to war and try to kill him. I was brought up in a family where you were taught to not take very much shit from anyone and if it required fighting or something else to settle a problem that was O,K, too. Yet I realize in gangs or even as between Israel and those in Gaza it is certainly much better to get along with others. If I were in Gaza I would probably get killed by trying t stop the missiles from being fired out of fear of retaliation. dANNY YOU HAVE DONE SO MUCH WRITING ALREADY THAT i THINK IT MAY BE IMPORTANT YOU DON'T GET TOOMUCH rebt For fear you won't have the motivation to carry on. Like as you attended so many FNW's I assume you live in New York so it is only natural you support the cause by seeing the legal battle continue or at least some investagative news paper reporter help you guard the public's rights in a non profit AEI. Always remember Mrs Ellis and others you think could keep the memories alive. I only get along with myself by not getting too irrational and using REBT. I was thinking the economy was pretty serious until I saw a TV show saying what would happen if a volcano at Yellowstone Park went off. If you get too wild calm down as I wouldn't want to hear bad things are happening. Sincerely, Dennis

The messageboard is a free service -software configuration - that is provided by an outside source. There is little control anyone has about making basic changes to the layout. At on time, the workshop reports were in the same section (here) as everything else.

A desicion was made to have them contained in their own section. I think it was a good desicion, but as you point out it does make them harderto find unless you are really tech savvy. Maybe something could be done on one of the other sites, like Will Ross' rebtnetwork.org or the friends of ellis site to make them easier to access. I would like to see more readership there - I believe they are valuable and would really help people if access was easier.

I understand about being angry about how Dr Ellis was treated. I had the same reaction when I first read about the situation in the Times many years ago. Hell, If I hadn't gotten angry about it I would have never gotten on these boards in the first place, and there would be NO FNW reports at all. So sometimes productive things can come out of the anger.

I don't understand what you mean here, except maybe that too much REBT leads to too much acceptance and no action?

Maybe you could clarify, I don't think that is the desired outcome of using REBT.

I will.

Thanks. I appreciate the concern.

PS - my mom is 73 years old and gave up sugar and flour many years ago. she is in great shape for her age and looks ten years younger than she is.

Danny, it is nice to see your responses here. After rereading what I wrote last time I am surprised you could even understand it. I will write better or proof read more. I find REBT helps greatly with my anger removal and at the same time removes the desire to act out. I am having problems writing as my message keeps going away most likely by my hitting the wrong key or having the mouse in the wrong place so I hit it by mistake, Anyway what I was trying to say involves the idea that for me REBT helps me get more rational ideas which lead to less angry emotions and as a result I am less likely to act out aggressively verbally or physically. I usually waste a lot of time underlining rather than just marking the edge of the page. I really do like Ellis's last book on Personality Theories. I especially liked the critiques of other theories. They certainly did cut out all the swear words or talk about sex. I do believe that was good in that religious nuts will not be turned off, also the lack of religious tolerance or rather a more honest expression of the irrationality of such beliefs. The scary thing is how little people understand the scientific approach and what they are willing to accept as proof for their crazy ideas. Danny I hope you fully appreciate the fact that we are all crazier than hell and unconditional self acceptance means we don't put ourselves down for not living up to our ego ideals. Thanks for writing all of those transcripts. If you still have the audio or video tapes I would like to pay you for your time and trouble in getting me copies ideally on a cd or dvd. Sincerely, Dennis P.S. if I don't follow up on something please let me know and I will try to do better.

Maybe the best comment I've seen in a long, long while.


yes, I do have audio but I can't in all sincerity see myself making a profit on Ellis' name. In my mind, the tapes are his - I am just a mere transcriber of words. The content was his genius. Enjoy what I have shared, and take from it that which suits you.

there IS more - more than I have made available, but when I choose to share it, I will share with all, and not be exclusive about it.

I think the links I have provided contain a wealth of information and encouragement... when that fount has run dry perhaps I will share more.....

Thanks Danny for the sharing of the wtords. I do though also miss hearing his voice and I did think that as in so many things maybe some words had been left out when transcribing. Sometimes just the way he says things helps me in knowing how important something is. I emagine Gail hasn't been visiting this site so much or I know we would hear from her. Why not others though??????? I just yelled at my sixteen daughter over the phone when she called and asked what I was doing. Earlier the school attendance person called to let me know she hadleft school early yesterday and didnot go at all today. She had taken care of a three year old and asked to stay overnight so she could just go to sleep there and then walk to school a few blocks today. I find just being calm and intelligently discussing things with her don't work well, fyet I don't think it is right for me to tell her to get her ass home when she calls and starts to tell me the baby sitter wants to know if she can do something. I ideally would have been patient enough to listen to what the request was. I have always told her I didn't want her dating anyone older than herself and now that she has an eighteen year old boyfriend who is a father and she just can't understand why I don't like him. I keep explaining that I don't know him so I really only think he is too old for her . She has gotten on the pill through planned parenthood fortunately but my problem is I am still old fashioned enough that I would prefer she didn't engague in such risky behavior. I long for the time when she will be 18 as for now she has a very hard time because of our restricting her freedom. The old ideas about wanting all the rights and privileges of an adult but doesn't seem to want any of the responsibilities. I met my wife in American Samoa after my divorce and the clashing of that culture with mine ffdoes have some influence as we adopted my daughter at age six because of their custom of giving their children to one another evidently to strengthen family bonds. I think it all to often contributes to the child's feeling maybe they weren't loved. I have been around long enough to know that trying to demand and force kids to do something doesn't work and now I am finding that trying to discuss things rationally doesn't work very well for me either. Lately I more strongly believe youth between the ages of 12 and 25 are all screwed up and as a society we had better realize it and do much more than we presently do to assist them in having more wholesome things to do, To me it does seem too many of us chase the all mighty dollar and lead quiet lives of desperation. I don't know who said that maybe Therou but I like it. Obviously with days like today I can benefit from reading Ellis and lless yelling as the loud voice doesn't work and there seem to be few desirable behaviors to support and far too many not so good behaviors to use to point out how poorly someone is doing.

No response, why not? Update on daughter, evidently she has an apartment with a girl friend who is eighteen and I assume the other girl got a section 8 rental agreement as my daughter says they only pay $5 per month for rent right now but later rent will be 1/3 of their income. Her excuse for missing more school is that either the girls boyfriend or boyfriends father raped the girl in their new apartment and my daughter tried to choke him in the process, police report etc. Not a nice situation yet all to similar to what reality is like as I explained to her why I wanted her to remain in the house until l8. Now she talks about getting a job, GED or an alternative school and I have my negative ideas about those things even if they were achieved. I am glad she does call home but I am now convinced her new driving idea is that her mother never did care for her before and she is not going to accept her caring now. I chalk a lot of it up to her age and of course as parents we have made our share of mistakes. I am now at the defeated stage of thinking where I say let her do her own thing and be available to talk or be around if things get really bad. I personally don't think calling the police saying she is a runaway would help. I think she is past that stage and to demand that she do as we ask would only end up in a greater power struggle in which she would become more hostile and alienated from the family and there is way too much of that already. I tell her that by age 25 we will probably all get along very well as we do with the other 8 or 9. that is if she survives and that is the scary part. When I think about it what can you expect from the baby of the family anyway? I do hope this is the last one. Maybe we """should""" change the topic to the economy and how pleased I am with myself for paying off so many of my bills I and others using my credit have acquired. That woman Orman may just be right about not loaning money to friends and relatives but I prefer to be the way I am even though I sure seem to get screwed from people I didn't expect to. I now say that is just the way people are so don't be so surprised when it happens and when it puts me in too much of a bind it is then time for me to say NO.The most important thing is how to continue to make myself happy and hopefully many around me too. I am convinced I have made it a better world to live in for many others so that in its self is quite satisfying. I sure am looking forward to selling some houses and moving to San Diego. I'm so old I feel cold even when the thermometer says 70 degrees. Sincerely, Dennis There is hope as I know how to find the lost screens with the TWO sliding bars on the right.

Sometimes other events prevent me from always responding in a timely manner.

I'm not a professional REBT therapist, just a lay person, and am somewhat hesitatnt to respond specifically to your issues with your daughter.

It sounds like a bad situation for her and your family right now. Have you thought about persuading her to go for therapy?There are probably a lot of issues all tangled up right now that could uses some sorting out.

I dont know what specific REBT advice to offer now. I know there are others who used to belong to this board who are familiar with dealing with these situations,but it doesn't seem probable that they would be reading this.

Anyway, I am here to listen if that is any help.

Danny

Well Danny it does look like only the two of us still visit this web site. Thanks for the concern. We did go for counseling maybe only 8 visits or so but I don't believe it really did help much. She has moved out of the house and now things are very calm. I just hope she doesn't get herself into any kind of trouble. Her present plans are to get a job, GED and then who knows. I was glad that she told me she had broken up with her boyfriend but as she didn't give me any of the details I don't know why. I have noticed that in this kind of situation it often leads to going back together then breaking up etc. Someone told me he was in jail for not showing up for court or something but who knows and in situations like this the wildest stories go around so fast that at times there doesn't seem to be much truth left. I haven't called her as part of living on your own is living on your own. I believe right now almost more than anything else she would rather not live with us. If things like this go their general way she will probably have a new boyfriend within six months and be living with him within a year, then at around eighteen she'll have a baby and try to have a family life,but as we know too often the relationship doesn't work out and eventually they split and she manages to try and raise a child by herself then the grandparents do somethings to assist in their having a better life. Nowmthat you have read all of this lets start thinking about how to keep in touch with others interested in REBT and learning what they are doping in their layman and professional ways to keep learning. Is there any place in the U.S. where someone can learn REBT and get a bachelor or masters degree, if not what would have to be done to accomplish this and who would be willing to attempt it. Probably the institute has legal rights to the name Albert Ellis Institute but how close could one come to using something similar that would assist people in recognizing those involved were attempting to more closely follow the ideas and REBT as originally thought of by Albert Ellis. Maybe even to doing the extremely difficult things necessary to buying another building and then through the internet keeping in contact with those already aware of his ideas as well as individuals interested in learning of his ideas and possibly being certified as a counselor elgible to work in government institutions etc.

Danny, I hope I haven't caused you to hesitate about writing by my personal entries, I would like to see a web site we could go to and discuss very personal things in our lives and see if we do have the knowledge to use some of Ellis's ideas in helping one another "God only knows he wrote enough that if we do our homework enough we had best find some very relevant information. I find myself raising my voice and saying things that cause others to think I am mad, yet I don't feel mad and think I have my emotions well in a state of mind where I don't like what others may say or do and I do express myself in a way to thoroughly let them know I don't like what they are doing, Specifically my wife learned that my daughter was having dinner with her sister-in-law whom I had sold a house to as well as paid all of the expenses involved in owning it plus a price about $20,000 below market price and then rented it out for them for over a year, Then the daughter-in-law and my son separated and for a couple years have been going through a desilution of marrage. I believe my wife is mainly jealous that she is getting the house and took it upon herself to proceed with the calling the police and saying our daughter was a run away. As things progressed I realized I did not like her doing that and that finally lead to my wife saying I was swearing at her and she was letting me know it, I then
purposefully swore and said, "Fuck You" and once more said to leave the girl alone and to mind her own business etc etc. It did reach the point that I also told her to get out of my house. Today she told me she is selling her house to one of our sons and taking her Bingo equipment to Samoa. I have not told her I didn't want her to do that as when I think things over I do believe we have reached a degree of difference in thinking that we may well enjoy life with some one else. She does love her bingo and goes about four nights a week. Usually my two grand children are home with me and another daughter. There are still seven of us in the family so I really don't get bored and at my age I prefer being at home. I just bought four more of Ellis's books to read but have been so busy cleaning up my daughters old room for the four year old grandaughter and lookiing at San Diego properties on the internet that I haven't started reading any. My daughter bought me a subscription to the Wall Street Journal a year or two ago and I told her to stop it as I don't read much of it. I am actually looking forward to its no longer being delivered at the end of this month, The big question to be answered for me is am I denying my anger or have I reached a point in my thinking where things no longer throw me for a loupe as they once did, My aother grandaughter (eight) wants me to help her with her spelling words and I think I have written more than enough for now. I do hope this is helpful to you as well as me. If you would like to stear in another direction let me know.

Dennis - I have read your message - thanks for the update.

I have to leave for work now, but you may be right about finding a more private forum for disscussing personal matters.

Maybe joining facebook and having private conversations or something - I believe there is a way to form a group on there also and people could talk both publicly and privately.

I have a busy day coming up and wont have time to investigate it for a while, but maybe it might work

Danny, I was glad to see your reply. I don't like the idea of a more private forum as so many people are so screwed up in their thinking that something like counseling had best be more available to the public as then if many people responded with their ideas as to what Ellis might say the people reading the ideas would begin to realize that any situation can have many many possible ways of thinking about it and gradually they may even recognize that different ideas lead to different emotional rfreaponses and different behaviors. Finally they may even begin to realize that they do control their own emotions by their thoughts and therefore they are responsible for how they feel at any one moment, The most difficult thing in REBT is getting the ideas across to others. Others who end up thinking doing serious harm to themselves or others is the best solution for their problem when undoubtedly hindsight would tell them that it was not. Ideas by people attempting to assist others with ideas that are more traditional such as various ideas from our authoritarian past or the bible or some other religion will naturally be brought up and by attempting to express ideas by Ellis we might more intelligently express reasons why the scientific approach is better in resolving our problems. I do hope you get the gist of what I am trying to say heere though I am certainly not explaining it very well. Anyway at times like this I do test my ideas about not being too concerned about what others think and the importance of unconditional self acceptance especially when I have done or said things that later I regret. One of the secrets in life is to not regret anything in life too much, ( to the point that you later think and do something that prevents you from maximizing your personal happiness in your future. I want help in learning how to better get Ellis's ideas across to others.

I think you have very good ideas and insight.

I just don't think that this is the place for discussions.
First off, it's hard to find.
Second, the people who did know about it don't come here anymore - let's face it, it's only us talking.
Third, There are a lot of nasty wounds and bad memories here, since this was the site of conflict between Dr. Ellis supporters and the AEI.

Also, some of us aren't anonymous to either side of the conflict, and would prefer more anonimity before engaging in deeper discussions about our personal lives
( OK, I'm speaking for myself here, at least)

I don't know if you are aware of it, there is an REBT yahoo group already set up that is pretty active. It's not an ideal solution - I think it's kind of "buried" on the web, that is not visible to the average person who might be able to gain new ideas from it.You'd probably have to already know about Al and REBT before you would find it searching for something on the web. there is a link to it at links->
REBT-CBT-FORUM

Danny I think you are right in a;; of the things you say. For now I will just settle for more reading and my phantisy about a place in California so big that I can try contacting people and asking them to take a few days to relax and discuss Al"s ideas and just deciding how we want to go about using his ideas for ourselves and get those ideas to others. The main idea had best be concerned in how to get people to try his ideas and learn the finer points of counseling them in such a way that they begin to see the logic of his ideas. And that evidently isn't very easy. I guess one thing I have learned is to not be too quick in giving up your legal rights to valuable property as there are always some real ass-hole behaving individuals who do believe their self worth is all wrapped up in how successfully they are financially. Now, once I get things worked out more or less how will I get in touch with those who might be interested? I guess I'll just solve that problem when its necessary. For now I will only check this site out once a week or month. Again thanks for all you have done and if you hear of some legal investigation of the AEI phone me at 406-251-4550 as I would like to be aware of it

I think we all were shocked at what we saw happen to Dr Ellis. And it would be nice to have some kind of public events that are REBT centered seperate from the AEI.

Who knows, maybe something like this will happen in the future.

You never can tell.