First off let me just say, I have no problem with gay people, the gay life style, or anything like that.

I do have a problem with being labeled that which I am not.

But I just learned that getting a girlfriend removes the gay from you, and therefore removes any desire to want to dress up as a little girl.

I have never wanted to appear like a little girl, but I know of people that do, and most of them claim to not be gay. I just want the freedom to wear what I like....much like women.

But according to this person wanting to cosplay Mana, is one of the results of being gay.

So tell me forum, what is your opinion on this revelation.

Do you go along with Mana's stance that that gender boundaries on expression are silly, and that it is cheap to assume someone is gay because they wear women's clothing?

Or do you think one's sexual orientation is determined by what clothing one chooses to wear? (honestly the gay guys I know, always wear pants, never skirts, never leggings. They always appear quite "masculine")

How about gals that wear guy's clothing items, oh that's right, it's all unisex for women.

Personally I want to cosplay Mana in MDM garb because HE LOOKS FREAKIN AWESOME!!!. It also helps that I like that kinda appearance. Always had an affinity for the creepy pale, almost death like goth appearance, thought I like the elegant goth aristocrat style too, now that I know what it is called.

Sorry if I cause a ruckus, it is just the email I got kinda ticked me off.

I fall into the cross dresser category because of some things I wear, but I don't find men in the least bit attractive (I find Mana visually attractive, but would want nothing romantic to do with him, I love him as an artist, as someone eloquently stated in dix secrets) If he were to be waiting in my bedroom, I would just get my guitar out and ask for lessons or just jam with him;), and perhaps ask for some make up tips, Heh.

Oh my! i was thinking exactly that when i started reading yr post! xD

but my right thought was:

"Whatever a person is wearing has nothing at all to do with sexual preferences."

I know someone who admires Mana as well, was born in a male body but claims to be a "woman", and so, ask people to call him as "she". She loves dressing like a woman and acting delicate and polite. She's a great musician and very much creative and also like wearing lolita-related stuff sometimes. She's so nice and also she claims to like the girls.

LOL!

same here!

i would only add having a phylosophycal talk about human nature, art, music and etc ;)

I honestly don't think skirt + man instantly equals being homosexual. It's just clothes. xD

Women wear pants which were meant for men and they aren't instantly labelled as being a lesbian. So I think it's only fair to have the same mind set with men in feminine clothing~ :D

Omg, I can't believe I forgot this. Hell yea, after the jamming, I would totally be into that kinda chat with him. That would in most likelihood be an absolute trip. Artists usually have that effect on people, and I am pretty sure :mana: would be three fold.

As far as the guy thinking he was born in the wrong body, I don't fit that category to a "t". I do wish I could continue to be as graceful in movement, without getting labeled inaccurate terms. Why do men always have to be clumsy, or tough or rough, or rugged, ah hell why do we have to fit any of those John Wayne (who it is turning out was flaming), qualities? I find those qualities usually lead to fights and hatred.

Well that is my experience any way.

It is just so silly.

Unfortunately, It boils down to lack of understanding.

Whilst cross-dressing is associated with the GLBT culture its not always the case...
Many people cross dress for a huge number of reasons mainly those of identity/preference/arousal. If you practise it, it doesn't make you gay, though typically extreme transvestitism is associated with drag acts, so if you REALLY dont want to appear "gay" I'd steer away from that image.

Men are not always so clumsy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_u9qOfE7g
^I wish I could go out dressed like that EVERY day!


EDIT: AND i FREAKING LOVE THIS DANCE!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6O7KFCCEdU

What's important is how a person is on the inside. Not how they dress, what gender they have, or which way they swing. That's irrelevant.

At least to me...

Besides that, if I were sitting with Mana, I'd most likely be talking geeky stuff with him. XD
As one geek to another. :)
And ask him to create some EGA for men with large chests... <_<

Those videos are an example of something people in the states don't understand and there fore label incorrectly.

Kabuki.

I like what I have seen.

Granted with what you say, but sometimes people like to express themselves.

Its like people used to say to me, why dress goth when you don't like attention, because ultimately that's what the style does?

It's ignorance on other people's behalf, because rarely does anyone have to say anything nice about something which is not normal to them. Then because of that ignorance, the seldom go on to learn anything more.

Clothes don't make ppl

and sexuality (as in being gay) has nothing to do with clothing (even tho its hard to believe)

Oh and lastly Cross dressing doesn't exist to me because clothing makes no gender....

Maddy: couldn't agree more. ^^

Izumi: True that...
People are ignorant at times. :/

My dad was a crossdresser, but he wasn't gay. I am happy not all crossdressers are gays. If they were, i wouldn't be able to live, because a crossdresser gave me the life :D . But i hate a huge show-off-ness... like "OMG, everyone must know somebody is a crossdresser!". I don't say a crossdressing is bad, but you should understand that our society still doesn't like to see men in girls clothes. When you are alone at home or in a crossdressers party, you can do whatever you want. But i am against a crossressing at the street or at work... i have to admit 80 % men look nasty in girls outfits. But not ALL of them. Sorry, i just wanted to say my own opinion.

How about guys that just do as women do and integrate the other gender's clothing items into their style.

That is what I do, I do not try to pass as a female.

Much like how women wear pants, though ages ago pants were only for men.

I appreciate your opinion, however you really should look at what you typed.

It comes off rather sexist, especially considering your own father.

I personally dislike full on drag, or guys that wear garish (non- goth mind you) makeup that is applied horribly, have exposed hairy chests, or legs for that matter, and act...well stupid.

That is not what I do. I simply wear skirts as if I was wearing pants. Presenting either as masculine a look as I can with societies narrow preconceptions, or an androgynous look.

If you want people would be shocked by your appearance, you can wear skirts. It is your choice. But if somebody thinks you are gay or you look weird, you can't be angry at him/her. If you want people wouldn't call you a gay, you should change your appearance. This is how our society understands everything. I see my message made you not so happy, but as i have said i just wanted to tell my own opinion.

For example, i would like to look like a punk with half-shaved head and purple hair, but i understand this wouldn't fit me, because i am university student. So, you also should understand what fits you and what doesn't. You are not a teenager, but you act like a teenager.

And about Mana... He is small, he has almost girlish figure, girlish face features and he knows how professionaly dress as a girl. But not all men can be as Mana is.

I am not against crossdressing, but people should understand where they can do that and where they can't.

Before anybody starts posting again: don't start a fight. ^^
This is the wrong place to do that in.

Just a friendly headsup.

Point taken xit.

It is funny though. How people allow others to control them (I am not innocent of this either, fear has a powerful effect), how mediocrity is brought about by places of "higher learning", or places that supposedly open minds.

Sorry to have almost brought about a fight. My intention was not that. It was however to get an idea of where people stood with some attitudes. Attitudes that in the end really limit people for no good reason.

Sorry Astral Romance. I did not mean to step on your opinion.

xD

LOL!

well, did i said before i supposedly have Peter Pan Syndrome?

i'm so happy about it though i'm sure there's a high percentage of people who thinks i'm ridiculous including my own family. But if you ask me, i don't really care cause i think everyone should be as their own and i'm feeling so proud of being a completely weirdo out of any society starndards and i must admit i completely ADORE whenever i can scandalize a society full of prejudices whit my weirdness. Even so, i'm good in my job and i strangely find people likes me. I'm sure that's because i'm just myself.

I said all this because i completely think you have to be the way you are it doesn't matter whatever others think or say. I mean, i was in university working on my thesis when i got my hair dyed in blue or red, and my career is psychology. So, i completely doesn't care if a man o woman goes out in the streets wearing pants, shorts, skirts, loli-dresses or anything else, on the contrary, if someone do it that's because that person's like me and so i respect him/her for having such a courage.

Heh, it's funny when I get told I act like a teenager.

I have been told all my life to grow up. My mom gave away my "pushy toys" when I was 13 (hot wheels, toy planes and cars, transformers, you name it, they went away because I was too old to play with such). She pretty much shunned me if I dressed up for Halloween. She was shocked when she learned of my going to rocky horror dressed up as a "gothic beauty" (my girlfriend of the time title for how I looked)

I acknowledge I act younger than my age. But the age I stopped growing at is around 25. When I am doing something that requires an older more mature person, I am that person. When flying the steeds I do, the person at the helm is a much older version of me. When the time calls for it, I am deadly serious.

But, unlike what most people think, it is completely unnecessary for people to behave "their age" at all times.

I intend to continue to look and act younger than I am. People mistake my age all the time, and their eyes bulge out when I say I am 36 years old. They look at my lightly tightly clad frame and say I don't look a day over 23.


That feels good.

I like your take Lips blood red. I wish more thought like us.

I am rather mixed on this subject.

I totally agree with Astral on the subject of professionalism. I learned this the hard way. If you want to be taken seriously, you must project an acceptable "facade" if you will. I love to dress goth, I love to wear Moitie, but I only do this when I am being my eccentric self. When I am around any professionals in my industry, I dress in suits with minimal makeup. Unfortunately, "normal" society and the professional business world is the hand that feeds. It's wise not to bite it.

I love being an individual. I am used to it. I have been goth for several years, but I know that if I want to get anywhere in life, I need to turn the goth on/off. Similar to cross dressing, it's a life style that is shocking to the public but can be turned off/on. Sorry, narrow minded people exist on both sides of the table!

As for the "women wearing the pants" subject........here in the US, it really happened with the early woman's rights movement. There has been no "mens rights movement" in concern to men wearing dresses or skirts. Technically, women from as far back as the 4th century in persia have been wearing pants. The media also helped with the whole pants business when Marlene Dietrich wore them in........ah, can't remember the name of the film......any who, there was also Rosie the Riveter in pro US WWII posters wearing overalls. Just a little history brief....

An issue I have with the professional image, or masks that we wear, is that, at least in the US, people in general are spending more and more of their lives at work. 14 to 15 hour days are the norm (which is beyond insane)

But that aside. I was not really talking about work with the OP. I was really just astonished that someone on this of all forums would say that "they are no longer gay" and then jump to "so I no longer have the desire to look like a little girl". That I thought was an awful but common leap of logic, and one that is IMO unfairly applied to only men.

I dislike uniforms, or dress codes at work because I have always felt the professionalism is the work produced, not what or who produced it. But I also understand image is everything to the ignorant, and in this world it is the ignorant we appeal to.

But what sucks is when someone who is on their own time doing something unusual is spotted by a fellow worker, and that effects their workplace the next day. Then again it could be a character building thing.

Bah, it really is easier being a mindless drone in this world.

What post are you refering to on the forums? If it's something in Dix Secrets then you should ask yourself this question....

What does "gay" mean? Does it just refer to male homosexual?....

Otherwise... if something someone posted truly offended you just PM a mod.

God, what happened to the phrase "A TIME AND A PLACE FOR EVERYTHING"????

I'm guessing thrown out with the garbage. XD

But in all seriousness, yes, there is a time and a place for everything.
Some times you just have to wear what other people expect no matter what...

Sorry, I thought this was the general section of the forum.

General meaning anything.

The phrase I am referring to was in a PM. The person's will not be stated. It was on this site. I thought it would be an interesting discussion, which it has been.

As for the time and place for everything. Where can a guy wear an article of feminine garb (other than ear rings, or hidden items like neglige), and not run the risk of losing their job, or even in extreme cases, life through the actions of the ignorant, aside from the bedroom, in their house, a drag club with only specific friends, and other such limited places?

The PM, did not offend me per se, it did shock me considering the main subject of this forum. So I was curious if this was indeed the view of people here.

I have to ask all who have participated. Throwing aside what society has driven into your skulls, and tossing aside the group think. Is there is any compelling reason there should be such uneven (hence unfair) rules on what people can choose to attire themselves in?

Attitudes like some stated here is almost like (certainly not completely like) the argument anti-gay marriage people say.

"If you are a gay guy that wants to get married, marry a woman."

Once again a very limited choice area.

But, that being said, I have contributed to having this thread spin out of control, and I think I may just drop it.

This is the general area. :)
And it is the place to talk about anything (within the rules that is...).
So it was the right place to post in.

But do also bear in mind that people have different views. ;)

Damn good question, which, alas, I do not have an answer to.
Wait for society to accept it. Or fight it till it becomes normal to wear such stuff.

Nope. It's utterly sily rules, I'll grant you that.

Personally I'd rather have that people could wear what they want, when they want.
But "normal" society doesn't like that. Meaning one have to make sacrifices to live in it. :(
Where "normal" society depends on job, country, friends, and so on and so forth.

I don't in anyway like it though... <_<

A man or woman can wear what ever they want when the want. It's their choice if they want to beware the repercussions. It is up to the individual if they want to get butt hurt about what society thinks. It is up to you as the individual to make a situation out of it, or just brush it off and stand proud.

Society will not nor will it change. Plain and simple.


As for the anti gay marriage statement, as xit already mentioned, we all believe differently. We have people with many different upbringings and different cultural confines. This is why we avoid political/religious statements and topics to avoid arguments.
Yes, we all love Mana and respect him as an artist, but that doesn't mean we all have to agree with what he does or wears. For example my boyfriend loves Mana as a guitarist, but thinks his image is often outrageous.
Mana has found his niche in the world and can practically do whatever the hell he wants because it fits him. Even in (non TV) interviews, I have read that he is under dressed and often only wears slacks, a blouse, a hat and shades. He is in the realm of business and is quite the professional. He even drops the "no talking" policy to give text only interviews.

Unfortuantely sometimes you have to accept that's just the way society is. Like xit said, you can wait until society accepts, or fight against it.

I could say the same about my town and my choice to wear lolita. I wouldn't DARE to wear my BtSSB dresses in my town! Though you could line 10 people up from my ton and 7 of them would probably be wearing identical sneakers or tshirts. Thats just the mentality up here. I go to the city, and I'll get people telling me the look is great, can they have a picture with me? It's different attitudes. I find where there is opportunity, there's a wider range of attitudes. My home town is pretty dead end. Most people are on welfare and they were probably born and will die living here.

As for this, in the UK, Schools require you to wear a uniform. The reason being is that, everyone wears the same thing, therefore nobody can be picked on for wearing the "wrong brand" or something retarded that kids will pick on each other for. So really that's a good idea.
Work uniforms distinguish you. If you work in retail like I have... If you're plain clothed, how are customers going to know who to turn to? Also, If you have a uniform and you look after it, and have a smart neat appearance, that says alot about you as an employee. There are all sorts of benefits for you and the company for wearing them.


I dont think that anyone has an "anti-gay marriage" attitude at all on here. We've always had discussions like this rise up, but nobody has really given any really offensive opinions.

The anti-gay marriage statement was just an example of a horrible argument that is used by ignorant people. I was in no way trying to equate the two issues.

But here is something you all may find of interest.

IT SEEMS STRANGE THAT TROUSERED WOMEN CAN RUN AMOK AT WILL, FOR FRANKLY THE SIGHT IS CRIMINAL AND AN AFFRONT TO THE SENSES.” Women in pants was an “attempt to merge the tewo sexes into one person;” they were afflicted with “permanent mental hallucination;” they were arrested by policemen because the cops were offended by pants on women; they needed “treatment” in “the best conducted hospitals for the insane”—NY Times, May 27, 1876, page 6.

Could you imagine getting thrown in jail for what you wear? Pretty insane. At least I think so.

Thank God we have gotten more enlightened. Oh wait, we have for only one side of the species.

By the way, I went to a school that had uniforms. I still got beat up for my red hair, the make of my shoes, and the make of my bike. Uniforms in schools just kill creativity in my view. It also allows teachers to not address a very important issue. Bullying.

Different topic though, and not for this forum.

Yeah I wore a uniform too but I got beaten the crap out of physically and verbally because I wore black eyeliner, because I hung around with guys, because I was an art student... because I had 34C boobs when I weighed only 98lbs...

Shit happens...

But I haven't stopped living the life I want to live, dressing the way I want to dress, just because people get butt hurt by what I choose to do.

Same here though it was mostly verbal assaults. Even though I had a uniform I still looked different, but that was mainly my choice when I was goth. However, I went to both schools with and without uniforms and bullying was as bad in both cases. Teachers addressing the situation or not doesn't depend on uniforms. In primary I didn't have a uniform and I looked pretty normal but I was still bullied. I think people are starting to be more aware of how big a problem bullying can be.

Also, I don't believe that wearing a uniform kills creativity. Whatever you're wearing, if you are a creative person you will find a way to express yourself. For example, even though they have uniforms in schools in Japan, some people there still manage to be exceptionally creative when it comes to fashion which is why Japan is seen as a source of inspiration for many designers.

And Pythos, by "Thank God we have gotten more enlightened. Oh wait, we have for only one side of the species." do you mean that the attitude towards men wearing women's clothes hasn't changed since the 1800's? If we take the example you've given as a reference then it would mean that men who prefer to dress (in part or totally) as the opposite gender are still treated that way?

I don't know where you live exactly but it is definitely not the case here. Of course you can get mean comments when you dress in an unconventional way but I think people are way more open now. When I was goth I got loads of comments along the lines of "it's not Halloween" etc. But I just ignored them because, even though I thought it was immature of them, I was also aware that the way I was dressed was different from what people are used to see.

As for pants being worn by women, in my opinion it was partly due to the fact that women are now allowed to have jobs or roles that were exclusively for men. As far as I know for men to wear skirts (for instance) isn't against the law. I knew a lot of goth guys who wore skirts and they were not gay and didn't get ostracised more than any other goths. And as an other example, there's a bus driver on the line next to wear I live who works fully dressed in women's clothing without having any problems.

Honestly I don't care about the heckling. That just shows their ignornace.

It is the possibility of losing a job for expressing my own style, when off the clock, that worries me. This is something women no longer face (there are laws that prevent such). Women have been working men's jobs for decades now. I don't even really know of a job women are prohibited to do (aside from combat actions in the forces, which is ludicrous, Israel doesn't even have such a stupid rule)

Recently a transgendered guy got fired for cross dressing when off the job. The person that did the firing was worried what customers would think. A Southern judge backed up the boss's stance. The ACLU is currently involved with this.

I also have slight concern about getting brutalized for wearing what I want. However unlikely it is. Which causes me to hide. But looking on the net there are thousands of men with my same inclinations, just want to be men, with a little more levity in what we can wear. Not want a sex change, or pass as a female.

There are people that say, "If you don't want to bear the consequences, then don't do it" To which I say, some consequences are acceptable, some are not. No-one should be able to beat me up, or ruin my life because of their narrow limitations.

Right now, I am in a short black skirt, hose, and my heeled boots. I am thinking about getting some grub. What do I feel compelled to do before I head out. Put on pants. Out of fear. That sucks.

I know that if guys actually tried some style out they would find they actually like it, but fear controls them too.

Again, I don't know where you live but I know there are laws here that would protect you from losing your job.

Yeah, to back up what Ludivine is saying, here in the US there is Title VII of the Civil Rights Act that covers all forms of discrimination.

As for discrimination while not on the clock, there are strict measures a company must follow in regards to your presence.

That is an interesting case of the trans gentleman, but I wonder if there was a larger motive for why the boss fired him..........

Here is a funny thought.....I never got ridiculed for hanging out w/guys, having c cup boobs, or being a crude person........but when I put on makeup and high heels and a skirt, all of my male friends turned on me and ridiculed me for being a girl......kind of an inverse effect huh?..........

well, a bit late about this, but still on topic.

I'm agree with dress codes too! In other way i wouldn't have a job xD

I think professionalism and being yrself are 2 different things. My hair is not eccentric dyed actually anymore. But, for some reason, though i'm thinking i'm looking "normal"people even find me different. My sister and some friends says it's my aura or something XD

@Pythos: I think a high percentage of my job mates think i'm lesbian cause i make jokes with a freind that she's actually my girlfriend as i think most of the girls do. The thing is i'm so open minded and when i make jokes about a female-male-chauvinism (sp?) they take it really serious. Thats' so funny! xD